90% of fights go to the ground...

[Buka]

I've always found the "such and such %" a little odd. Whether a fight remains in stand up, or on the ground, or in a car, or at your relatives bachelor party, it's still a fight. If someone doesn't have a good ground game, that's a weakness - if someone doesn't have good stand up that's a weakness, too. So, too, is lack of endurance, lack of will, lack of an offensive hammer and on and on. We all got weaker parts of our game. I guess that's why we still train.

 

[Cirdan]

But, you don't have to stay there.

You don`t have to join the monkey dance in the first place.

 

[Mark Jacobs]

Thought I’d chime in here since I did a fair amount of research on this for a book I wrote. Among the studies I found that directly contradicted the 90% number (I’ve actually heard claims as high as 95%) was an informal study of 300 street fights broadcast on Youtube which was published in Black Belt magazine. In that, 72% of the time one combatant ended up on the ground and only 42% of the time did both combatants end up on the ground. Two studies cited in the article “Going to the Ground: Lessons from Law Enforcement.” published in The Journal of Non-Lethal Combatives showed studies by law enforcement organizations which were more or less consistent with the numbers found in the Black Belt study and well below the 90% number.

 

[geezer]

I'd be curious to find out where the other 10% of the fights end up. Under the table? Out the window? I was in at least one that went into the pool ...in mid winter. That water was about 45 degrees!

Actually, I was getting beat by my big brother at a pool-side party. He was a damn good wrestler and things were turning South for me so I intentionally took it over the side. That cold water sure put an end to our interest in fighting!

 

[celtic_crippler]

Actually... 100% go to the ground... if you hit 'em right. :boxing: ...heh

 

[Uncle]

Actually... 100% go to the ground... if you hit 'em right. :boxing: ...heh

Exactly. Lies, damn lies, and statistics

 

[chinto]

Like I said earlier, I DO NOT buy the figure at all, that said I would say regardless of what style you are trained in, stay off the ground on the street! If you go to the ground on the street, you have broken glass and dirty needles and a myriad of environmental hazards there! Then there is the fact that they almost never attack people in singles! so he/she has a friend or 3 there who will kick your kidneys, spine, head or ribs in if you are down there..especially if you seem to be gaining an advantage! ( there is a real danger of crippling or death from such kicks by a standing person who is serious and kicking you when your on the ground people!)

So, Unless you are a cop, taking a suspect down to cuff, or perhaps working in a hospital or corrections and also taking that person into custody in cuffs, STAY OFF THE GROUND! ( and if you are a cop etc, do not do it if you do not have help there encase he/she has friends around!)

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

The way that I look at this is whether you want to go down to the ground or not is not up to you but up to your opponent. If you are a good looking guys, girls will hold on your legs. You have to drag those girls wherever you may go. When there are too many girls hold on your legs, no matter you like it or not, you will be dragged down to the ground. When a 300 lb big guy uses his body weight to drag you down to the ground, it's very difficult to stand still and not to go down with him.

When dragging such as "pull guard" or "jump guard" start to get popular, people take that short cut and don't train throwing skill any more. IMO, the dragging is the killer for the throwing arts. Does it work? Yes! Do I want to do it? No. The day that I have to depend on my "pull guard" or "jump guard", the day that I should find a rope, get a quite place, and hang myself.

 

[Mauthos]

As stated well by Chinto, the worrying thing about this statistic, whether true or not, is that going to the ground in a street fight is inherently dangerous.

No matter how well trained you are in BJJ or any form of grappling style, in the street I have always been advised, and will always advise my students, to try and keep the fight standing. Most fights as you call them 'Monkey Dances' are rarely one on one. If someone starts on you or your friend, more than likely they have their friends with them.

Therefore, if a fight goes to the ground it is essential that you try and regain your footing, again as Chinto stated, there is no amount of grappling skill or experience that is going to protect you from your opponents mates sticking the boot in to your unprotected back, head etc. Worse, if his mates join in, then probably (hopefully for you) your mates jump in and gone is a street fight, replaced with an all out brawl.

I would always strongly recommend trying to keep a street fight standing (unless you can ensure there is only you and your opponent involved) as even if you are Rickson Gracie himself, no amount of grappling can protect you from the guy you are grappling and his 4 mates standing and kicking the proverbial **** out of you.

 

[lklawson]

As stated well by Chinto, the worrying thing about this statistic, whether true or not, is that going to the ground in a street fight is inherently dangerous.

A fight is inherently dangerous. "The ground," in truth, adds little to no additional danger.

No matter how well trained you are in BJJ or any form of grappling style, in the street I have always been advised, and will always advise my students, to try and keep the fight standing.

See, that's the rub, ain't it? The operative word here is "try." I can tell you with authority that it is 100 times easier for one participant, even in a more or less "even odds" fight, to literally force the fight into a wrestling match on the ground. It is so easy to do that it is almost laughable. Fights that have both participants remain standing do so because of a combination of two things. First, because of some tacit understanding between the participants not to drag each other to the ground. Remember, it's easy. IOW, no one drags the other to the ground because they simply choose not to. The reason for the choice is, honestly, irrelevant. One of them could if they wanted to in the majority of the cases. Secondly, another reason that a fight remains wholly "stand up" is, are you ready for it? Dumb Luck. Let's face it, no one starts out of the womb standing and walking and when a person starts learning they fall a lot. Keeping your balance simply standing is, to be 100% honest, a fairly complex skill which we are now complicating 100 fold by putting the participants in a chaotic situation where they may be getting pummeled, knocked off balance, tripping over objects, or slipping on debris and slick surfaces.

You may, for whatever reason, tell students not to choose to "go to the ground" but you probably also tell to not choose to get punched in the face. There's pretty good odds that it could happen any way regardless of what they "choose" and if they're not prepared to operate in that environment then they aren't prepared for an important and statistically significant fighting range.

Most fights as you call them 'Monkey Dances' are rarely one on one. If someone starts on you or your friend, more than likely they have their friends with them.

Which, according to records, indicates that the defender will have even less chance of being allowed to "choose" whether or not to remain standing. They frequently get "swarmed" and dragged to the ground by one or more of the attackers. Those remaining standing may engage in a bit of "the boot." The defender better know darn well how to deal quickly and efficiently with the attacker(s) who drug him down and then be able to force that attacker to disengage so the defender can attempt to stand back up again.

Therefore, if a fight goes to the ground it is essential that you try and regain your footing, again as Chinto stated, there is no amount of grappling skill or experience that is going to protect you from your opponents mates sticking the boot in to your unprotected back, head etc.

Actually, that's not entirely true. If you know how to manipulate an attacker who has dragged you to the ground you can often choose to position yourself in a more advantageous position in relation to other participants. I know, personally, of at least one multi-person attack where the defender was dragged to the ground and successfully used the ground attacker as a shield to block out other attackers.

Worse, if his mates join in, then probably (hopefully for you) your mates jump in and gone is a street fight, replaced with an all out brawl.

As I wrote, if you're being swarmed you're already well past fryingpan-to-fire and you're well in the char-broiled phase. You're hosed. You almost certainly will be knocked or dragged down and your only slim hope of not getting your skull caved in by an attacker's crap-stompers is to have a working understanding of ground fighting.

I would always strongly recommend trying to keep a street fight standing (unless you can ensure there is only you and your opponent involved)

Sure. I'd also always strongly recommend trying to get your attackers to tacitly agree not to use a gun or a knife on you too. But sometimes you can't get those darn criminals to fight fairly and, occasionally, he brings Murphy with him too. For those occasions, knowing how to actually fight on the ground might be of benefit.

as even if you are Rickson Gracie himself, no amount of grappling can protect you from the guy you are grappling and his 4 mates standing and kicking the proverbial **** out of you.

No amount of any "unarmed combat skill" is going to keep them from kicking the stuffing out of you. Your ONLY hope is running or deploying a weapon.

I'm constantly amazed at the collective gestalt misunderstanding of multiple attackers. Darned few people are good enough to beat two simultaneous attackers. Fewer for three. From there it becomes more and more fantasy and luck.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[EddieCyrax]

This assumes you are going to fight under UFC or BJJ rules in a street fight.

If i get pulled down and my attackers come with me, the first thing I am looking for is his eyes to be gouged, his throat, his hair, and every soft tissue part of them that I can put my hands on to cause pain.

If they stay standing and there are multiple, this is bad. Defend head while looking for opportunities to take out a knee or two. Better yet, look for an openning to flee.

 

[celtic_crippler]

In all seriousness...

From a self-defense standpoint, fighting/defending on the ground puts you at several disadvantages that remaining on one's feet does not. Just off the top of my head:
(1) You lose the ability to escape/get away from the situation
(2) You lose mobility
(3) It seriously impedes your ability to deal with more than one attacker
(4) It uses up a lot more energy leading you to gas out more quickly
(5) It's a good way to get kicked in the head by a bystander

That being said, I fully endorse and do train for the ground. You'd be remiss in your training not to cover all avenues of attack or to ignore certain scenarios. It's arrogant to think that you're such a talented fighter that it's impossible that you would ever find yourself in that position; however, part of that training should be focused on how to recover your footing quickly.

 

[Mauthos]

A fight is inherently dangerous. "The ground," in truth, adds little to no additional danger.

See, that's the rub, ain't it? The operative word here is "try." I can tell you with authority that it is 100 times easier for one participant, even in a more or less "even odds" fight, to literally force the fight into a wrestling match on the ground. It is so easy to do that it is almost laughable. Fights that have both participants remain standing do so because of a combination of two things. First, because of some tacit understanding between the participants not to drag each other to the ground. Remember, it's easy. IOW, no one drags the other to the ground because they simply choose not to. The reason for the choice is, honestly, irrelevant. One of them could if they wanted to in the majority of the cases. Secondly, another reason that a fight remains wholly "stand up" is, are you ready for it? Dumb Luck. Let's face it, no one starts out of the womb standing and walking and when a person starts learning they fall a lot. Keeping your balance simply standing is, to be 100% honest, a fairly complex skill which we are now complicating 100 fold by putting the participants in a chaotic situation where they may be getting pummeled, knocked off balance, tripping over objects, or slipping on debris and slick surfaces.

You may, for whatever reason, tell students not to choose to "go to the ground" but you probably also tell to not choose to get punched in the face. There's pretty good odds that it could happen any way regardless of what they "choose" and if they're not prepared to operate in that environment then they aren't prepared for an important and statistically significant fighting range.

Which, according to records, indicates that the defender will have even less chance of being allowed to "choose" whether or not to remain standing. They frequently get "swarmed" and dragged to the ground by one or more of the attackers. Those remaining standing may engage in a bit of "the boot." The defender better know darn well how to deal quickly and efficiently with the attacker(s) who drug him down and then be able to force that attacker to disengage so the defender can attempt to stand back up again.

Actually, that's not entirely true. If you know how to manipulate an attacker who has dragged you to the ground you can often choose to position yourself in a more advantageous position in relation to other participants. I know, personally, of at least one multi-person attack where the defender was dragged to the ground and successfully used the ground attacker as a shield to block out other attackers.

As I wrote, if you're being swarmed you're already well past fryingpan-to-fire and you're well in the char-broiled phase. You're hosed. You almost certainly will be knocked or dragged down and your only slim hope of not getting your skull caved in by an attacker's crap-stompers is to have a working understanding of ground fighting.

Sure. I'd also always strongly recommend trying to get your attackers to tacitly agree not to use a gun or a knife on you too. But sometimes you can't get those darn criminals to fight fairly and, occasionally, he brings Murphy with him too. For those occasions, knowing how to actually fight on the ground might be of benefit.

No amount of any "unarmed combat skill" is going to keep them from kicking the stuffing out of you. Your ONLY hope is running or deploying a weapon.

I'm constantly amazed at the collective gestalt misunderstanding of multiple attackers. Darned few people are good enough to beat two simultaneous attackers. Fewer for three. From there it becomes more and more fantasy and luck.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

I must say I agree with pretty much all you have said, I was rather simplistic in my statement as more often than not multiple attackers will no doubt get you on the ground and yes an understanding of ground fighting is without doubt going to be advantageous in this situation.

I can see your point regarding the multiple attackers and using a downed opponent as a shield if the need arises, however, I have always been a firm advocate of the following:

In the case of facing multiple opponents, it is not like the movies, they will not attack you honourably one at a time, waiting for you to dispatch one before the next attacks. They will not necessarily also attack in a staggered formation, allowing you to deal with one at a time either, normally they will bum rush you.

However, in these situations, inevitably there will always be the trigger. That can be you, or one of your opponents.

They may decide to let one attack you slightly ahead of anyone else as they really don't want to be the ones that instigate the violence. Or you can choose to preempt and strike first.

In this situation my advice, no matter how many people may disagree with me, is to inflict as much damage as possible. If you strike first at the nearest opponent or a guy makes the first step to attack you, then you should attempt to at least try and take him out of the fight as quickly as possible in a brutal fashion. It is amazing how this affects other people, seeing someone drop screaming with a broken knee etc, and suddenly they may not be quite so willing to fight. This then enables you to prepare for the next attacker, or sensibly, get the f out of there.

Again this is not always going to be the case and therefore it is having the awareness of your surroundings that will help.

As you are rushed try to get obstacles, other attacker's in the path of the guys rushing you, trying to funnel them toward you. Use one as a shield, just as effective on your feet as it is on the ground.

Try (yes I realise I am saying try again and that it is not always possible) to make them fight you one at a time. Keep something to your back at all times, move constantly to keep putting the attackers in their own way and in that way it is possible to tackle and combat multiple attackers successfully.

Unfortunately I am not speaking from a Bruce Lee fantasy that I dream about, this has happened to me once and I successfully defended against 4 attackers using these principles, never letting them get to me at once and using them against each other as it were. It is one of the reasons why I pressure test my students with these types of scenarios and why I impress upon them that it is not possible to block everything, you will get hit in these situations so prepare for it, but you can try (yet again, I know) and minimise the amount of shots that land trying (I know again ) to ensure the more serious blows never land.

 

[chinto]

where I live, people wear boots, corks and logging boots and cowboy ropers... kicks from these are deadly! a swipe from corks will maim. so I would say that if its serious and your on the ground here and do not get up, you have a very good chance of being a statistic in the morgue. Lots of people here carry guns for a reason. and against multiple attackers here, it is justifiable to deploy and use that fire arm. ( the law considers multiple attackers to be a deadly force encounter in my state. ) So, Yes you can and should try and often will if you are both good enough and willing to be serious (read use enough force with out restricting yourself ) to stay on your feet... but different places may have different norms as far as how serious such a situation may be.

 

[WingChunIan]

My riposte to everyone who has quoted this statistic to me over the years has always been the same. It may be true but closer to 100% of them start standing up. Whatever art you practice its important to practice fighting in compromised positions including when you have been unceremoniously dumped on your backside and if you make fighting from the floor and regaining your feet a part of your training it ceases to be a scary as it is if you've never encountered it before and suddenly find yourself like the proverbial fish out of water.

 

[Instructor]

The fight goes where it goes.. No two are the same. All a person can do is to try to prepare for when you get there.

 

[Uncle]

My riposte to everyone who has quoted this statistic to me over the years has always been the same. It may be true but closer to 100% of them start standing up. Whatever art you practice its important to practice fighting in compromised positions including when you have been unceremoniously dumped on your backside and if you make fighting from the floor and regaining your feet a part of your training it ceases to be a scary as it is if you've never encountered it before and suddenly find yourself like the proverbial fish out of water.

Land this is one thing I think the Gracies lost with their overreliance on the ground. Judo at least has a balance of standup and ground fighting but the Gracies thossed almost half of the curriculum in favoring the ground. The result is that when they grapple against other styles which are stronger in takedowns like wrestling or judo, they spend a lot of time working from their back.

Personallyi find the best combination is Anderson Silva plus takedowns. Let's face it he has pretty much the ideal combination of skills and attributes for ring and self defence. Amazing striking (for during standup) + amazing takedown defence and clinch (to keep it in standup) + amazing ground skills (to fight from his back and neutralize damage on the off chance someone gets him down). Add amazing takedowns and ground and pound to that for the option to take it to the ground and you've got the whole shebang covered.

And as for the folks who always pull out the "yeah but grappling doesn't work against multiple opponents." Striking gives you an advantage but not much by comparison and the grappling skills do aid the striking skills. Standup grappling helps with the ability to not go to the ground and disengage from grappling. Ground grappling helps with the ability to get off of the ground and deliver quick, well placed strikes to downed enemies. It's an area which you cannot discount and that's what most people who level that argument are attempting to do.


And let's face it if you've allowed yourself to get into such a situation where you're being attacked by multiple people and you haven't had the brains to be aware of your environment and/or have friends with with you then natural selection is taking its course.

 

[lklawson]

This assumes you are going to fight under UFC or BJJ rules in a street fight.

If i get pulled down and my attackers come with me, the first thing I am looking for is his eyes to be gouged, his throat, his hair, and every soft tissue part of them that I can put my hands on to cause pain.

If they stay standing and there are multiple, this is bad. Defend head while looking for opportunities to take out a knee or two.

I've been hearing that for a really, really long time. And, I admit, on the surface, it sounds good. However, you seem to assume that an attacker who has already dragged you to the ground can't poke eyes, etc. too. Whenever I hear these arguments, it's as if the person presenting them believes eye pokes (EMFG) and groin grabs are some sort of Ancient Chinese Secret that no one but they know about.

I'm sorry to say that, if it ever was a secret, when Larry, Curly, and Moe hit the scene they really let the cat out of the bag. Because of them there are only three ways to actually successfully employ an EMFG.

1. Be skilled enough in close grappling (ground or standing) to be able to dictate who has a position to EMFG and who has to defend against it (as well as having to defend against G&P, chokes, and joint locks)
2. Get really lucky and find someone who has never even heard of MMA, never mind seeing a match
3. Yell "Nyuck, Nyuck, Nyuck" or "Woob Woob Woob!"

Speaking from from experience here, the person who has some training and experience on how to move, act, and react if they get pulled to the ground will have the best odds of employing an EMFG. The other guy will be the one defending against it.

I know one BJJ practitioner who got into a fight with a dude. He didn't want to go to the ground (he didn't actually want to fight at all). But the guy tied up and it flowed to the ground. The attacker tried to EMFG him but my BJJ friend had superior position and was able to use that to shift his head and block out the attacker's arm (probably at the elbow). But the fact that the idiot tried to EMFG him pissed off my friend and he dislocated the jack-wagon's shoulder because the guy pissed him off.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[Instructor]

I've been hearing that for a really, really long time. And, I admit, on the surface, it sounds good. However, you seem to assume that an attacker who has already dragged you to the ground can't poke eyes, etc. too. Whenever I hear these arguments, it's as if the person presenting them believes eye pokes (EMFG) and groin grabs are some sort of Ancient Chinese Secret that no one but they know about.

I'm sorry to say that, if it ever was a secret, when Larry, Curly, and Moe hit the scene they really let the cat out of the bag. Because of them there are only three ways to actually successfully employ an EMFG.

1. Be skilled enough in close grappling (ground or standing) to be able to dictate who has a position to EMFG and who has to defend against it (as well as having to defend against G&P, chokes, and joint locks)
2. Get really lucky and find someone who has never even heard of MMA, never mind seeing a match
3. Yell "Nyuck, Nyuck, Nyuck" or "Woob Woob Woob!"

Speaking from from experience here, the person who has some training and experience on how to move, act, and react if they get pulled to the ground will have the best odds of employing an EMFG. The other guy will be the one defending against it.

I know one BJJ practitioner who got into a fight with a dude. He didn't want to go to the ground (he didn't actually want to fight at all). But the guy tied up and it flowed to the ground. The attacker tried to EMFG him but my BJJ friend had superior position and was able to use that to shift his head and block out the attacker's arm (probably at the elbow). But the fact that the idiot tried to EMFG him pissed off my friend and he dislocated the jack-wagon's shoulder because the guy pissed him off.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

Good story and solid point. People that start fights never seem to consider the consequences. The human body is a fragile thing. Some injuries never quite mend right again.

Just about every Martial Artist I've ever met from any discipline has treated others with courtesy and has tried very hard to avoid conflict.

 

[Uncle]

Good story and solid point. People that start fights never seem to consider the consequences. The human body is a fragile thing. Some injuries never quite mend right again.

Just about every Martial Artist I've ever met from any discipline has treated others with courtesy and has tried very hard to avoid conflict.

I believe you ,issued the point of his post.