Why doesn't boxing, wrestling, and most Western fighting sports suffer from the Mcdojo phenomenon?

[Buka]

I loved that job. Not as fun at the first store I worked at, which was on "The Ave" in Seattle. At the time, that place was pretty rough. Lots of homeless teens, drugs, etc going on in that area. Fortunately, a lot of the worst ruffians were my friends, but I was frequently asked to kick people out, break up fights, etc...

The second store I worked at was great... down on University Avenue, not too far away, but on the good side of Greek row. A lot of really pretty, frisky sorority girls going through the drive thru all the time. They would shamelessly objectify me, but at 16, I didn't mind at all.

In my senior year in high school, my family moved to Bainbridge Island. I was already enrolled at Garfield in Seattle, so we just sort of didn't tell them that we had moved. I would take the ferry across into Seattle, go to school (well, really, I would skip most days and hang out with my fellow delinquents), then work evenings at the Coleman Dock store literally in the ferry terminal and then just walk onto the ferry after work.

Those were pretty good times. After I graduated, I got a job as a dishwasher at a place called the Streamliner Diner on the Island. The other dishwasher was the drummer for Nirvana at the time, before they were really big. His name was Chad, and he and I got pretty messed up after work on many occasions.

My time on Bainbridge was relatively brief... was there for just over a year. But man, that was the most irresponsible year of my life.

Yeah, there were some years like that back then. Thankfully, we survived them.

My second job was pumping gas. Kinda fun for a kid, but in the pouring rain and freezing cold, it sucked. Then in a shoe store, then a clothing store. Suddenly I was one of the sharper dressed kids in high school.

First job in college I was Santa Claus. Fun gig. Lots of drunk college girls would come in on weekend nights to get their pic taken on Santa's lap. Next job was in a sub shop, I was there for a year, never made even one sub. My job was to answer the telephone in the back room and record sports bets.

Man, I had some crazy part time gigs in the early years.

 

[lklawson]

That would be well into the period I'm talking about (which, admittedly, was pretty broad). I'm including the post-WWII GI's returning with their shodan. My recollection of the history is hazy, but wasn't that significant by the mid-50's?

Yes, it was. Particularly following the Korean conflict.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[lklawson]

I'm willing to bet you can, sometimes. Wouldn't necessarily be the "go to" move, but sometimes...

You know, if your uniform included a black leather crotchless mini-hakama.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[Steve]

You know, if your uniform included a black leather crotchless mini-hakama.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

Martialtalk... after dark.

 

[Hanzou]

On a related note, Rickson Gracie seems to agree with BJJ becoming McDonaldized;

Rickson Gracie: Modern BJJ Black Belts Remind Me of Karate Practitioners Clueless of Jiu-Jitsu

Every martial art begins with real-life combat effectiveness as its top priority. As civilizations evolve and safety concerns diminish, the survival emphasis is replaced by sportive practice, and over time, the art is stripped of its combat effectiveness altogether. Jiu-jitsu has arrived at this...

www.bjjee.com

Of course I think he's more upset that BJJ as a whole is moving on from his family.

 

[Urban Trekker]

It just occurred to me: while no one will deny the existence of TKD and hapkido McDojangs, I've only seen bullshido associated with Japanese and Chinese martial arts. I've never heard of Korean martial artists teaching dim mak, no-touch knockouts, etc.

Has anyone else? FWIW, that "mystique" that Westerners perceive in Asian cultures, in my observation, seems to only limited to Chinese, Japanese, and Indian cultures. This could explain why Korean bullshido would be a tougher sell. Same for FMA.

 

[Hanzou]

It just occurred to me: while no one will deny the existence of TKD and hapkido McDojangs, I've only seen bullshido associated with Japanese and Chinese martial arts. I've never heard of Korean martial artists teaching dim mak, no-touch knockouts, etc.

Has anyone else? FWIW, that "mystique" that Westerners perceive in Asian cultures, in my observation, seems to only limited to Chinese, Japanese, and Indian cultures. This could explain why Korean bullshido would be a tougher sell. Same for FMA.

TKD is pretty straight forward. It's a sport, so no one really thinks it's bullshido per se. I believe with the advent of MMA and some kick-based knock outs, the general consensus now is that TKD has some great kicks and you should combine those skills with some grappling and some hand striking.

Hapkido has never been widespread or popular enough to really be brought into the equation. I would say the majority of folks just haven't had enough experience with it to form an opinion one way or another. I will say that Combat Hapkido's anti MMA stuff is some of the funniest junk I've witnessed in a long time.

Though NOTHING will ever top Ving Tsun anti-grappling...

 

[Steve]

TKD is pretty straight forward. It's a sport, so no one really thinks it's bullshido per se. I believe with the advent of MMA and some kick-based knock outs, the general consensus now is that TKD has some great kicks and you should combine those skills with some grappling and some hand striking.

Hapkido has never been widespread or popular enough to really be brought into the equation. I would say the majority of folks just haven't had enough experience with it to form an opinion one way or another. I will say that Combat Hapkido's anti MMA stuff is some of the funniest junk I've witnessed in a long time.

Though NOTHING will ever top Ving Tsun anti-grappling...

Totally agree. Application keeps things honest. We may not like the application. We may also have varying opinions about whether the skills will transfer successfully outside of the application. But you can’t say they don’t apply what they learn, provided they are competing.

All that said, some schools are too deadly and seruousto compete, and that’s a red flag.

 

[isshinryuronin]

It just occurred to me: while no one will deny the existence of TKD and hapkido McDojangs, I've only seen bullshido associated with Japanese and Chinese martial arts. I've never heard of Korean martial artists teaching dim mak, no-touch knockouts, etc.

Has anyone else? FWIW, that "mystique" that Westerners perceive in Asian cultures, in my observation, seems to only limited to Chinese, Japanese, and Indian cultures. This could explain why Korean bullshido would be a tougher sell. Same for FMA.

Interesting observation. Never thought about it before (that's why this site is valuable), but I may have a historical handle on it. The Indian MA culture exported to Shaolin had strong elements of Zen, and a few centuries later in China, Taoism played an even bigger part in their MA. Both these belief systems have what we'd call "mystical" qualities (although some of it was based on fact as most myths are). So the door was open for the exotic, esoteric beliefs you are talking about to take hold.

Most of this was lost during the next export event which was to Okinawa as it combined with their native MA, te. The Okinawans learning this new MA were mostly professional military or security agents, who IMO, were not as given to fanciful beliefs, depending on solid fighting skills for their life and livelihood.

The next link in the chain was the export from Okinawa to Japan. There, karate developed into a sport and health activity taught in the public schools and sponsored by the gov't. No need or incentive for "death touches." From there, it was exported to Korea and I believe was initially military, then sport based as well.

FMA was born in the jungle as a combat survival skill and also, I think, far removed from the philosophical influence of the mainland Orient.

This brings us to the Western version of karate which very soon became commercialized and profit based. Now there was an incentive to dig out all those ancient mystical techniques and, bolstered by the entertainment industry, found new life as "bullshido." At least, that's my take on it.

 

[Rich Parsons]

It just occurred to me: while no one will deny the existence of TKD and hapkido McDojangs, I've only seen bullshido associated with Japanese and Chinese martial arts. I've never heard of Korean martial artists teaching dim mak, no-touch knockouts, etc.

Has anyone else? FWIW, that "mystique" that Westerners perceive in Asian cultures, in my observation, seems to only limited to Chinese, Japanese, and Indian cultures. This could explain why Korean bullshido would be a tougher sell. Same for FMA.

As to FMA, there is theft if styles, claims originators stole to provide their fathers the credit, and yes there are some in the park in Manila that would fall into the Mall McDojo mindset.

And their mysticism (* Anting Anting *) is usually kept private and unknown so people don't know their secrets and try to counter.
No Disrespect to those who follow such a path, it is not part of the FMA's I teach.

 

[drop bear]

I think that would just irritate a competent grappler and result in more pain for you.

You would be OK if you could escape knee on belly super effectively.

 

[drop bear]

It just occurred to me: while no one will deny the existence of TKD and hapkido McDojangs, I've only seen bullshido associated with Japanese and Chinese martial arts. I've never heard of Korean martial artists teaching dim mak, no-touch knockouts, etc.

Has anyone else? FWIW, that "mystique" that Westerners perceive in Asian cultures, in my observation, seems to only limited to Chinese, Japanese, and Indian cultures. This could explain why Korean bullshido would be a tougher sell. Same for FMA.

I think there is a whole shtick they use that they invented everything.

 

[WaterGal]

It just occurred to me: while no one will deny the existence of TKD and hapkido McDojangs, I've only seen bullshido associated with Japanese and Chinese martial arts. I've never heard of Korean martial artists teaching dim mak, no-touch knockouts, etc.

Has anyone else? FWIW, that "mystique" that Westerners perceive in Asian cultures, in my observation, seems to only limited to Chinese, Japanese, and Indian cultures. This could explain why Korean bullshido would be a tougher sell. Same for FMA.

Mmm. I don't think I've heard of Korean styles teaching no-touch knockouts and such, but I've definitely seen both some pretty dubious self-defense techniques and some very questionable claims about lineage and such.

For example, years ago, I was looking up TKD schools in a certain area for someone, and one school had a section on their website about how the school's Korean owner/grandmaster learned TKD from monks in a secret Buddhist monastary in the remote mountains of Korea in order to avenge his parents who were killed by gangsters. I think this same guy said that the monks taught him levitation.

Edit: also, the commonly repeated claim that Taekwondo and/or Hapkido are thousands of years old ancient traditions of Korea. While that's not BS on the level of no-touch knockouts, it's still nonsense. They both postdate WWII.

 

[TenHands]

The reason is simple: boxing/wrestling/etc are very basic, while Karate/TKD/etc are very complicated. Harder to mess up something basic.

When I say basic, I do not mean unsophisticated or lesser; I just mean having an arsenal of a few good punches is more rudimentary than memorizing 26 katas.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

The reason is simple: boxing/wrestling/etc are very basic, while Karate/TKD/etc are very complicated. Harder to mess up something basic.

I can't speak for boxing, but IMO the wrestling art is much more complicate than Karate/TKD/etc.

The striking art require only 1 point contact. The wrestling art requires 2, or even 3 points contact such as to use your

- left hand to pull to the south direction.
- right hand to push to the west direction.
- right leg to spring to the east direction.

To coordinate your body to move into 3 different directions at the same time is much more complicate/difficult than to land a punch on someone's face.

 

[TenHands]

I can't speak for boxing, but IMO the wrestling art is much more complicate than Karate/TKD/etc.

The striking art require only 1 point contact. The wrestling art requires 2, or even 3 points contact such as to use your

- left hand to pull to the south direction.
- right hand to push to the west direction.
- right leg to spring to the east direction.

To coordinate your body to move into 3 different directions at the same time is much more complicate/difficult than to land a punch on someone's face.

This is very true. However, the very act of wrestling is indeed a natural instinct for humans. Throwing a proper roundhouse kick, on the other hand, not so much.

 

[drop bear]

This is very true. However, the very act of wrestling is indeed a natural instinct for humans. Throwing a proper roundhouse kick, on the other hand, not so much.

Wrestling well isn't a natural instinct.

 

[caped crusader]

owner/grandmaster learned TKD from monks in a secret Buddhist monastary in the remote mountains of Korea in order to avenge his parents who were killed by gangsters. I think this same guy said that the monks taught him levitation.

Master Chu?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

the very act of wrestling is indeed a natural instinct for humans. Throwing a proper roundhouse kick, on the other hand, not so much.

One has to learn at least 30 different principles in order to be able to defense himself well on the wrestle mat.

撕(Si) - Tearing
崩(Beng) - Cracking
捅(Tong) - Striking push
褪(tun) - Hand pushing
肘(Zhou) - Elbow pressing
蓋(Gai) - Covering hands
攞(Lou)- Pulling hands
搖(Yao) - Body-shaking hands
捯(Dao) - Reverse arm-holding
抖(Dou) – Shaking
分(Fen) - Separate hands
掖(Ye) - Hand tucking
引(Yin) - Arm guiding
捧(Peng) - Arm raising
架(Jia) - Elbow Locking
圈(Quan) – Under hook
抄(Chao) - Over hook
抹(Mo) – Wiping
偏(Pian) – Head circling
夾(Jia) – Clamping head
摘(Zai) – Helmet removing
摀(Wu) – Face covering
速(Su) – Forehead push
墬(Zhui) - Sticking drop
撈 (Lao) – Leg seize
環(Huan) – Neck surrounding
托(Tuo) – Chin pushing
封(Feng) – Throat/waist blocking
撒(Sa) – Casting
飄(Piao) - Floating hand

 

[lklawson]

On a related note, Rickson Gracie seems to agree with BJJ becoming McDonaldized;

I said this years ago and got shouted down by BJJ folks: "It isn't happening and never can happen because of how BJJ 'works'."

Of course I think he's more upset that BJJ as a whole is moving on from his family.

I pointed out an Open Letter written by Helio himself in Black Belt Magazine complaining about the watering down of BJJ and the lowering of standards. The BJJ folks <cough> "informed me" that it was just that Helio was butthurt over all the non-GJJ derivatives and how he didn't have control.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk