8th Degree Promotion. Is this a Joke?

[DoxN4cer]

Originally posted by arnisador
That wouldn't be a promotion per se--one doesn't get "promoted" from sergeant to 2nd Lieutenant. But in any event, what happens when you get to the top? Who appoints the CINC (president)?

People "below" him. That's the problem--Mr. Hartman was at the top of the WMAA. This is hardly without precedent in either the business world or the martial arts. While he could have gone to higher ranked individuals in the Phil.--a fine idea--they were practicing a different form of Modern Arnis. Mr. Hartman was promoted by an organization--similar to the Board of Directors idea--with the approval of two Grandmasters who outranked him.



These criteria are evaluated entirely on paper, if I'm not mistaken?

You're trifling over semantics in terms of my military analogy, Jeff.

The electoral college; not the popular vote, appoints the president. I'm sure that you are familiar with that. Component commanders (general officers) are recommended by the president and are approved by Congress after review. However, comparing martial arts politics to the American government doesn't work. There is a system of checks and balances in the layout our government that doesn't exsist in the martial arts politcal arena.

True, such promotions are not without precident. I'll conceed that point, but going over the Falls in a barrel and surviving isn't without precident either.

You guys did what you felt you had to do. Fine. Were you surprised that people disagreed with it? You shouldn't be. Other options were available, weren't they? Was there a big rush for the promotion? Was there a big number candidates for 6th dgree that the WMAA couldn't wait for further deliberation?

As for the WSHC (and the perhaps the GOE) rankning and recognition procedures go, my knowledge is not first hand; just word of mouth and what I have read. However, candidates must provide documentation of their continuous training and teaching experience (via certificates and resume), letters of reference, and undergo an evaluation by a board of masters, senior masters, and/or GMs.

Thanks for the input, Jeff.

Tim Kashino

 

[Mathusula2]

I don't seem to understand this... Tim is promoted by an organizational board, with 2 GM's signatures, while Dan promoted himself while 4 GM's endorsed him based on information that isn't entirely correct... how can one argue that Tim's promotion is more "shadey" than Dan's?

The WSHC award Dan refered to in his petition for rank was given last year in September as recognition that he founded MA-80... it is NOT a recognition of Dan's promotion.

It just seemed that that discussion missed some very valid points.

P.S. It's nice to hear from a SUSPENDED member of Martialtalk. :btg:

 

[bloodwood]

You posted this after the symposium.

At this time I wish to announce that I am no longer affiliated with Dr. Barber and his crew in WNY, at least for now. It is unclear to me at this point if I can ever faithfully lend my support to that circle of people again. I still consider Dr. Barber my friend of over 15 years, and an outstanding instructor of martial arts. However, considerng the events that had come to light in Buffalo I feel it is both prudent and necessary to remove myself from that group in and continue on my own path.

If you had a change of heart, that's fine, if not, I'm a little confused as to your posting DrB's words here on MT, especially since he is in suspension.

bloodwood

 

[Tgace]

Wow! Im amazed that anybody really cares about this stuff...besides political/personal affiliations what is the bug hub-bub? And dont give me "system integrity", "coming together as FMA family", "honesty in promotions" yadda yadda..this system wasnt founded on it, wasnt propagated with it and will probably never have it. These "Clans" are fighting it out (albeit with words) just like the founding FMA groups always have and thats fine, hell were talking about "fighting" here at the root anyway.

 

[Dan Anderson]

Originally posted by Mathusula2
1 - I don't seem to understand this... Tim is promoted by an organizational board, with 2 GM's signatures, while Dan promoted himself while

2 - 4 GM's endorsed him based on information that isn't entirely correct... how can one argue that Tim's promotion is more "shadey" than Dan's?

3 - The WSHC award Dan refered to in his petition for rank was given last year in September as recognition that he founded MA-80... it is NOT a recognition of Dan's promotion.

It just seemed that that discussion missed some very valid points.

P.S. It's nice to hear from a SUSPENDED member of Martialtalk. :btg:

Mike,

Please re-read this section of the petition:

Promotional data

- I am the longest continuously training American student of Remy Presas
- Ranked 6th Degree Black Belt by the founder Remy Presas in 1992
- Awarded Founder of the Year 2002 by the World Soke Head Of Family Councilship
- I have written 2 books on Modern Arnis: De-Fanging The Snake: A Guide To Modern Arnis Disarms and Advanced Modern Arnis: A Road To Mastery
- I have demonstrated my art at the 2002 by the World Soke Head Of Family Councilship demonstrations
- I have taught Modern Arnis 80 at both The First Filipino Martial Arts Gathering in San Francisco in 2002 and The Modern Arnis International Symposium July 2003
- I ran the Pacific Northwest Modern Arnis Summer Camp for 9 years.
These are just the key accomplishments.

Promotion request
I am asking for 2 official recognitions:

- as Founder of Modern Arnis 80 (as distinguished from Remy Presas' Modern Arnis) with the Filipino term of Puno ("Puno literally means leader which shows how you are planting your seeds." Bong Jornales, Arnis Sikaran)
- a numerical ranking value of 8th Degree Black Belt.

1 - It was a petition (dictionary definition:an appeal or reuqest to a higher authority or being, something requested or appealed for - Microsoft Encarta Dictionary page 1349) which had a request (dictionary definition: an act of politely or formally asking that something be done or given - Microsoft Encarta Dictionary page 1524). It was not a self-promotion. I would have had to come out and state that I am an 8th Degree Black Belt in Modern Arnis 80 first and then ask for recognition.

Additionally, per definition, a petition is something which can be denied as easily as it can be granted.

2 - I was wrong as to being the longest continuously training American student of Remy Presas. Rich Parsons corrected/reminded me of the fact that Jim Power predates me. There could be others who I still don't know. That was presumptious of me to state that and I have apologized publicly to Jim Power in another thread.

Now Mike, would you care to educate me where else I was dishonest? Also, I'm afraid that I don't know you so could you tell me where you are getting this information from?

3 - That is entirely correct. If you go to the World Soke Head Of Family Councilship website, they state that they don't award ranks. It might have been misinterpreted by others that they recognized the 8th Degree. The World Soke Head Of Family Councilship awarded me Founder Of The Year for founding Modern Arnis 80. I have never stated anything other than that.

The comparing Tim's promotion to my promotion is an issue I never brought up. Why? Because it is a non-issue. His accomplishments are what they are and are not disputed by me at all. They never have been.

Yours,
Dan Anderson

 

[arnisador]

Originally posted by DoxN4cer
You guys did what you felt you had to do. Fine. Were you surprised that people disagreed with it? You shouldn't be. Other options were available, weren't they? Was there a big rush for the promotion? Was there a big number candidates for 6th dgree that the WMAA couldn't wait for further deliberation?

No surprise about disagreements. Other options were considered and we did what we thought was best, and what seemed like the best precedent (from Kenpo). I don't see how whether or not there was a rush, or other candidates, figures in--the problem wasn't going away. We deliberated at length and consulted with outside experts (e.g. Mr. Planas).

As to semantics, my real point is that I don't think the discussion of military promotions you initiated is relevant. It's a different beast.

Thanks for the input, Jeff.

We have no beef with Mr. Anderson and I certainly have none with you. Different people will approach this problem in different ways. Frankly, I think that Mr. Anderson and the WMAA approached it in very similar ways, down to an overlap of signatories.

The WMAA wishes Mr. Anderson good luck. In addition, we understand that some people will question Mr. Hartman's promotion and that is fine. It's no surprise that those who are members of a discussion web board will discuss minor details of these actions in great depth--that's the case with such boards--but it doesn't change anything at the big level.

 

[Dan Anderson]

Wow! I have just been banned from the WMAC Forum for two months for the petition. I am truly stunned. Forums, unless I don't understand correctly, are for the discussion of topics whether agreemdent is reached or not. See http://forums.uechi-ryu.com/viewtopic.php?p=79301#79301 for the data.

Yours,
Dan Anderson

 

[bloodwood]

An organization should be able to exist without forums. It exists on the strength of it's members and the comittment of it's staff and instructors. I guess Kelly is saying, time to walk the walk.
Good luck Dan as you start you new journey.

bloodwood

 

[Datu Tim Hartman]

My opinion is easy to understand. If you don’t like what Dan is doing, don’t train with him. This goes for everyone. The IMAF didn’t work for me after Remy retired so I left. Each Modern Arnis group will service the needs for its members DIFFERENTLY. This does not mean one is better than an other. This does mean that a particular group may be better for YOU.

That being said, I wish people would stop trying to make this a Tim vs. Dan thread. Dan and I are on two separate paths, this does not make us enemies. I wished him luck and I meant it. Friends don’t have to agree on everything.
:asian:

 

[Dan Anderson]

Blood,

Thank you for the well wishing. I did this journey once before back in 1977 with the formation of American Freestyle Karate. Time to go back to the attic to find my "travellin' shoes."

Guys, Tim is correct. you think we don't see eye to eye now, you should have been there in John Bryant's office back in 1986(?). That's now a beer story between Tim and I. Tim and I are on separate paths and that's cool. Tim, thanks for the well wishing as well. All for now.

Yours,
Dan Anderson

 

[Datu Tim Hartman]

Originally posted by DoxN4cer
As for the WSHC (and the perhaps the GOE) rankning and recognition procedures go, my knowledge is not first hand; just word of mouth and what I have read. However, candidates must provide documentation of their continuous training and teaching experience (via certificates and resume), letters of reference, and undergo an evaluation by a board of masters, senior masters, and/or GMs.

Like you said, your knowledge is second hand and incorrect. As someone who has been inducted into 3 different Halls of Fame (including WSHC) it is highly over rated. I enjoyed the events and met some great people, but it’s not what everyone thinks it is.

 

[DoxN4cer]

Originally posted by Renegade
Like you said, your knowledge is second hand and incorrect. As someone who has been inducted into 3 different Halls of Fame (including WSHC) it is highly over rated. I enjoyed the events and met some great people, but it’s not what everyone thinks it is.

Nobody is trying to make this a "Dan vs. Tim" thing. The thead sure did start out like a "Dan-bashing", and if I recall correctly Ingmar Johanssen (kenpo viking) is affliated in some way with the WMAA. He's the European Administrative Director. Correct? I realize that Jeff Leader is the only authorized peron to make official statements for the WMAA, one might make the supposition that his statement that started this thread may have been an "unofficial statement" from the WMAA. Paul Janulis' (an Advisory Board Member) comments might even be misconstrued into supporting that theory. However, Tim and Jeff have both offered their best wishes on a personal and official (WMAA) level. That's good enough for me. Anyone seeing a connection there would be incorrect.

I know what you mean, Tim. I saw some video of some of the presentations. Some (like Mr. Hummerstone, Dan Anderson and Ray Dionaldo to name but a few) were truly outstanding. Several others were just lame.

Please elaborate on my error, and I would also be interested in hearing about what other options you might have had and why you had chosen that particular route. I'm not trying to pick at you, Tim. I'm genuinely interested. Hell, who know's, I might be in a similar situation one day down the road.

Halls of Fame: there were some interesting conversations on induction into various martial arts halls of fame on the WMAC some time ago. Over rated seems to be an understatement.

As for Dan's promotions through the WHSC, being recognized as a master/founder/GM by an council of other senior masters, GMs, Sokes etc., is a great accomplishment in itself regardless of who takes acception to it. Dan's reputation precedes him, as does yours for you.

Respectfully,

Tim Kashino

 

[Datu Tim Hartman]

Originally posted by DoxN4cer
Please elaborate on my error, and I would also be interested in hearing about what other options you might have had and why you had chosen that particular route.

The error I was refering to was about the proceder of getting into halls of fame. I was not refering to rank promotions.

 

[Cruentus]

Originally posted by DoxN4cer
You're trifling over semantics in terms of my military analogy, Jeff.

The electoral college; not the popular vote, appoints the president. I'm sure that you are familiar with that. Component commanders (general officers) are recommended by the president and are approved by Congress after review. However, comparing martial arts politics to the American government doesn't work. There is a system of checks and balances in the layout our government that doesn't exsist in the martial arts politcal arena.

I agree that the the example of the President doesn't work. However, you are the one who used the example to make your point, whether you realized it or not. Your main example was a military one, where the President is Commander and Chief, technically "the highest ranked." Tim is technically the "Commander and Chief" of the WMAA. 6th degree is the highest rank given in the U.S. for Modern Arnis. The electoral college votes according to the popular vote in their state, so our "Commander and Chief" is voted in by "lower ranks" any way you look at it.

However, I agree that the example, your example, doesn't fit. I would also conceed that the CEO example doesn't fit either. There are checks and balances in Business as well as in government. However, a CEO is "elected" in most big companies by a board of directors. The board is often "elected" through proxy by shareholders.

Because we are a democracy and not nationalist or monarchy, our structure for almost anything in America is that "leaders" and even "rank" and "status" for our chosen leaders are elected by the people below them. This is the American way. As a military man I would surely hope that you would support democracy, and the american way.

However, I agree that you will be hard pressed to find an example outside of the martial arts "world" that fits the current situation of Modern Arnis.

But this means that your examples don't fit either, and that you have failed to logically prove how Tim's promotion was "shady."

True, such promotions are not without precident. I'll conceed that point, but going over the Falls in a barrel and surviving isn't without precident either.

There you go again. Don't use examples that you can't back up. Tim's promotion hardly compares to "going over falls in a barrel."

You guys did what you felt you had to do. Fine.

Gee...thanks.

Were you surprised that people disagreed with it? You shouldn't be.

Actually, there hasn't been much disagreement at all. Your the only one who seems to disagree right now, even though you've failed to prove how the promotion was "shady."

Other options were available, weren't they?

But none of these other options were "better" then what was done. These other options also didn't fit the circumstance. Our leaders have done what they needed to do according to their individual circumstance.

Was there a big rush for the promotion? Was there a big number candidates for 6th dgree that the WMAA couldn't wait for further deliberation?

As Mr. Leader explained, the problem needed to be addressed before it got to a point were we had a canidate for 6th, or 5th. And actually, 5th would be the magic # because a 6th can't promote to his own rank.

Besides, there wasn't a rush. Professors body was long buried before Tim's promotion.

As for the WSHC (and the perhaps the GOE) rankning and recognition procedures go, my knowledge is not first hand; just word of mouth and what I have read. However, candidates must provide documentation of their continuous training and teaching experience (via certificates and resume), letters of reference, and undergo an evaluation by a board of masters, senior masters, and/or GMs.

My knowledge is first-hand. I was supposed to go to the event where Tim and Dan recieved their awards. So, re-read my explaination, for it is from a 1st hand understanding of their proceedures.

Also, even if the WSHC was there to verify rank, as Mathusula2 rightfully pointed out the award was recieved BEFORE the promotion.

So this point is also mute.

Bottom Line: Tim's promotion was far from "SHADY," and you have failed to prove otherwise.

Thank You,

PAUL
:armed:

P.S. I have no beef with you TIm K, by the way....I just disagree with you as much as I happend to like a good arguement.

 

[Cruentus]

Please elaborate on my error, and I would also be interested in hearing about what other options you might have had and why you had chosen that particular route. I'm not trying to pick at you, Tim. I'm genuinely interested. Was there a time frame you wanted to meet?

Now, questions are good. A lot better then just believing that the promotion was "shady". Maybe we'll all come to some sort of understanding before this thread is up.

I will let someone answer your question....that's all for today...

:asian:

 

[DoxN4cer]

Originally posted by Renegade
The error I was refering to was about the proceder of getting into halls of fame. I was not refering to rank promotions.

I wasn't refering to induction into a hall of fame. I was refering to promotions. Am I still in error?

Tim

 

[Mathusula2]

2 - I was wrong as to being the longest continuously training American student of Remy Presas. Rich Parsons corrected/reminded me of the fact that Jim Power predates me. There could be others who I still don't know. That was presumptious of me to state that and I have apologized publicly to Jim Power in another thread.

Dan, this was the piece of information that I was refering to... If it was in your petition and unknown to those who endorsed the promotion, then my statement was accurate -- but you did admit to this. My post was not meant to be an attack toward you personally, it was more a reply to those who have turned this thread into a Tim vs. Dan and implied that Tim's promotion was "shady" while yours was not. The reality of the 2 promotions falls to 2 differences:
1. Who wrote the petition (you for yourself and the board for Tim.)
2. What rank you petitioned for.
IMHO these are details; the fundamental way the promotion was finalized (through endorsement of GMs) is the same. I guess that was my longwinded point of this past paragraph: As much as people want to create this drama behind the 2 promotions, in my eyes they are basically the same.

would you care to educate me where else I was dishonest?

You weren't dishonest, and I never said you were. I said the "information wasn't entirely correct" as you had admitted to.

As for the WSHC, I was correcting DoxN4cer, not meaning to attack you.

The comparing Tim's promotion to my promotion is an issue I never brought up. Why? Because it is a non-issue. His accomplishments are what they are and are not disputed by me at all. They never have been.

I know. I never said anything otherwise, and if I implied anything to this sort, I am sorry. Again, my post was aimed at those making this an issue, and taking shots at Tim Hartman in the process.

Also, best of luck on your future endeavors with MA-80.

With respect,

:asian:


P.S. I did take a blatent shot at a certain individual... :btg:

 

[Dan Anderson]

Michael,

Thank you for the clarification. As emotionally toasty as this thread is, you really have to watch exactly what you post. As you can tell, it shifts quickly in meaning and context.

Ingmar,
Why no reply to my email?

Hey, we're up to page 6 already.

Yours,
Dan Anderson

 

[Datu Tim Hartman]

Originally posted by Dan Anderson
Ingmar,
Why no reply to my email?

Hey, we're up to page 6 already.

Yours,
Dan Anderson

For the record, Ingmar only posts while he visit's the states.

 

[Datu Tim Hartman]

Originally posted by DoxN4cer
I wasn't refering to induction into a hall of fame. I was refering to promotions. Am I still in error?

Tim

As I said, your intel on the Hall of Fame was incorrect. I was not commenting on Dan's promotion.:asian: