8th Degree Promotion. Is this a Joke?

[Dan Anderson]

Jeff,

It was a private conversation and was not represented to me as anything but that. I do know Paul does not speak for the board.

Yours,
Dan Anderson

 

[Cruentus]

Originally posted by tmanifold
Dan I think you went about it in the right way. Rather than having juniors promote you or some org unilaterally promoting you, you asked to be judged by a group of your instructors peers.

Tony

Just wanted to correct your statement a little. If the promotion had gone the other way, it would not have been a just group of juniors promoting. Also, it would not have been "some org unilaterally promoting." Dan was a WMAA member so the promotion would have came from the Org. he was a member of; this is not the same as an org. that he is not a member of unilaterally promoting. Also, Juniors would not be the ones promoting him; other instructor peers would have been the ones signing off on the promotion just the same. However, "Juniors" would have advocated his promotion, gotton the "instructor peer and senior" signatures, and signed off on his behalf rather then Dan having to do this himself. I believe I explained this adequetly if you re-read my posts above.

Understand, I mean no disrespect and I am not faulting you for agreeing with Dan's actions. I just wanted to prevent any misconceptions.

Thank You,
PAUL
:asian:

 

[Dan Anderson]

Originally posted by PAUL
Just wanted to correct your statement a little. If the promotion had gone the other way, it would not have been a just group of juniors promoting... Dan was a WMAA member... Juniors would not be the ones promoting him...
PAUL
:asian:

Riddle me this, Batman,

Did any of you know that I was never ranked by WMAA in the first place? In that respect, there are no junors to rank me as I was the most junior. They were ALL my seniors! Hey, Kaith! Fancy that!

You know, in fact, I am also a white belt in MARPPIO, IMAF (Delaney), IMAF, Inc. (Shea), WMAC, IMAF Philippines, DAV, as well as Cromwell Martial Arts headed by my old pal, Frank Shekosky. How's that for cold taters?

Yours,
Dan Anderson

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Heh. I'm a senior. No wonder I feel old.

Actually Dan, you were listed on the WMAA site as a 6th degree. (I know cuz I maintain the website). I don't of course know the organizational side of it. If it was a reconization or a ranking (or how folks will define either).

But, ya was dere.

I can't comment on the other orgs as I'm still working on bringing all of them under my banner....

 

[stickarts]

Well Dan, in that case, you sure are one HECK of a white belt!! :0)
CMA certainly recognizes you as the senior (in Arnis / martial arts!) that you are.
Hope to train with you again in the near future.

 

[arnisador]

The WMAA respects all ranks granted by the Professor. Hence, the WMAA considered Mr. Anderson a 6th degree black belt. This has always been our policy.

If the Prof. granted you a Lakan X, the WMAA considers you a Lakan X (or possibly higher--ranks from other groups are considered on a case-by-case basis).

 

[stickarts]

that sounds fair enough!

 

[DoxN4cer]

Originally posted by PAUL

So Tim Kashino, I wouldn't compare the two. Dan's promotion and Datu Hartman's are 2 different animals. Dan's is actually more "controversial" when you look at the facts. Many will disagree with Dan, and many will back Dan up, but rest assured this is a cause for more "stir" then Hartmans promotion.

Paul, I'm not stirring controversy. I'm stating the facts. Tim's promotion looked extremely shady... just calling it like I see it.

While I can agree that the two promotions are two different animals, I cannot agree to your statement that Dan Anderson's promotion is more controversial than Tim Hartman's. I do agree however, that this further splinters Modern Arnis.

Tim's promotion came from within his own organization in which he is the highest ranking member. His promotion though endorsed by two GMs outside of his organization, came from board members from his organization ranked lower than he is.

Dan's promotion came from a council of GMs with the endorsement of more than two (five?) GMs outside of his organization. Dan was recognized and duly promoted by and inducted into the WSHC by men "above" his status and elevated by the members of that organization. He was promoted by his seniors and peers, not by a board of his own students.

Had Tim petitioned the WHSC as Dan had; or received his promotion from his seniors in the art like Dieter Knuttel or Kelly Worden had, his credibility and the legitamcy of his promotion to 7th dan/Lakan Pito would not be an issue.

Tim Kashino

 

[DoxN4cer]

Originally posted by Dan Anderson
Riddle me this, Batman,

Did any of you know that I was never ranked by WMAA in the first place? In that respect, there are no junors to rank me as I was the most junior. They were ALL my seniors! Hey, Kaith! Fancy that!

You know, in fact, I am also a white belt in MARPPIO, IMAF (Delaney), IMAF, Inc. (Shea), WMAC, IMAF Philippines, DAV, as well as Cromwell Martial Arts headed by my old pal, Frank Shekosky. How's that for cold taters?

Yours,
Dan Anderson

So Dan, nobody is recognizing your Lakan Anim from the Professor? Did I read that right? Cold shot from the "splinters".

Tim

 

[tmanifold]

Originally posted by PAUL
Just wanted to correct your statement a little. If the promotion had gone the other way, it would not have been a just group of juniors promoting. Also, it would not have been "some org unilaterally promoting." Dan was a WMAA member so the promotion would have came from the Org. he was a member of; this is not the same as an org. that he is not a member of unilaterally promoting. Also, Juniors would not be the ones promoting him; other instructor peers would have been the ones signing off on the promotion just the same. However, "Juniors" would have advocated his promotion, gotton the "instructor peer and senior" signatures, and signed off on his behalf rather then Dan having to do this himself. I believe I explained this adequetly if you re-read my posts above.

Understand, I mean no disrespect and I am not faulting you for agreeing with Dan's actions. I just wanted to prevent any misconceptions.

Thank You,
PAUL
:asian:

When I said "unilaterally promoted by some Org" I meant some org he is the head of.

I still like his idea of getting his deceased instructors peers to sign off on the rank he felt he deserved. In my view that is the best way I have ever seen anyone go about recieving advanced rank after there founder/teacher died.
I am not pointing fingers at WMAA or anyone else but I have seen way to many organizations whose senior members all promote each other to very high rank, rank which I am sure would not have been award by founder in many cases.
Look at the kenpo world for example (which is why it is so ironic that the starter of this thread is Kenpo Viking). All these people are know 8th, 9th or 10th dans, how many 8th and above do you think Paker would have promoted? A handful at most and probably no 10th dans. Even the Kenpo Connection guys who used to pride themselves on the rank they were given by parker (as shown in the ads) now are 10th dans.

Again good job Dan.

Tony

 

[Rich Parsons]

Ladies and Gentlemen,

I am very glad that people have been able to express their concern, their qustions, and their opinions on this thread, and to still within reason remain polite and semi - friendly. I do hope that it will continue to remain this way.

Thank You from a Member of the Modern Arnis Community.

 

[Dan Anderson]

Originally posted by arnisador
The WMAA respects all ranks granted by the Professor. Hence, the WMAA considered Mr. Anderson a 6th degree black belt. This has always been our policy.

If the Prof. granted you a Lakan X, the WMAA considers you a Lakan X (or possibly higher--ranks from other groups are considered on a case-by-case basis).

Jeff,

Since this is a rather charged subject, I thought I'd lighten it up a bit. My post on not being ranked in WMAA, et al, was done very tongue in cheek. Frank Shekosky got it right away. Hey, since the above was posted, can I get one of those cool WMAA certs? Back dated and later cancelled, of course. C'mon guys - that deserves at least a chuckle.

Yours,
Dan Anderson

 

[Red Blade]

Originally posted by DoxN4cer
Paul, I'm not stirring controversy. I'm stating the facts. Tim's promotion looked extremely shady... just calling it like I see it.

Tim K.

Isn't this the pot calling the kettle black? After all you were involved with the Norshadow scam. It seems that you might have an axe to grind with him.

 

[loki09789]

Let's look at the information as it is laid out:

1. Dan petitioned a higher ranking committee that he had no direct affiliation with, put a resume on the table that included 4 publications as well as his training and contribution to the art and they recognized his work and awarded him a rank and agreed to support his curriculum.

How many black belt/instructors has he produced?
How large an influence has he had on the art?
What has he done to gain further mastery of his art?

2. Tim was promoted from within his organization by a committee of peers/juniors. Same basic questions as above about students and stuff...

If this were an issue in a commercial business/or government department, which would look like either unethical business practices or conflict of interest to an outsider?

I DON"T really care about rank and who's who in this issue, I just don't like it when someone makes a post and someone else tries to play FBI Profiler to sift through secret motivations and agenda's. Argue the evidence/observable details and that reduces the pettiness that can lead to mayhem.

Paul Martin

 

[arnisador]

Originally posted by Dan Anderson
Since this is a rather charged subject, I thought I'd lighten it up a bit. My post on not being ranked in WMAA, et al, was done very tongue in cheek.

I suspected so but I wanted to make sure no one misunderstood our policy, esp. because this very issue has come up before where others were concerned!

 

[MJS]

Originally, I wasnt going to post regarding this, but I have changed my mind. IMO, rank is not as important as some make it sound. It doesnt matter if you have 1 stripe or 10 stripes on your belt. The fact of the matter is, is that it does not turn you into a superman! What really matters is the knowledge that you have, how well you understand and can apply the material against someone who is resisting, and what you have given back to the art. Granted, some people who wish to go on their own with their own org. are entitled to pretty much do what they want. Dan has chosen this path, and I wish him the best of luck. Even though I have never had the chance to meet or train with him, I have heard many good things about him.

Once you reach a certain point in whatever art you study, there really isnt much more to learn. After a while, your promotions are more of what you have given to the arts, rather than learning another tech. or kata. Dan has been promoted to the rank he is, by people who in their own right, are very skilled MA's, and I'm sure that they would not have given that rank to him if they felt that he didnt deserve it.

There are many people out there, especially in the Modern Arnis world, (Who will remain nameless) that have not nearly contributed as much as some, yet they still run around hanging the title of "Master" or "Grandmaster" around their neck. Again, like I said in the beginning, IMO, rank isn't that important. The people who do this might be fooling some, but there are many others out there that know the real truth about them.

Again, Dan, I wish you the best with your Org. and I look forward to someday, having the chance to meet or train with you.

Mike

 

[Dan Anderson]

Paul,
"How many black belt/instructors has he produced?
How large an influence has he had on the art?
What has he done to gain further mastery of his art?
Good questions. 1 - Not many, 5 or 6 I believe. Modern Arnis has been a smaller segment in my school. 2 - Hard to say. I've worked with many, many people over the years at camps and seminars but have never taken any kind of poll as to how much influence I've had. I do know that in the recent year and a half my books have met with great reviews so there is an influence of sorts. 3 - I am researching the roots of Remy Presas' art by studying balintawak eskrima under Manong Ted Buot.

Mike,
I'm not going anywhere so we will meet and train together some day.

Jeff,
Just checkin'.

Yours,
Dan Anderson

 

[Cruentus]

Tim K: We can agree to disagree here if it comes down to it, but I need to understand your logic. Right now, I don't. I still believe Dan's promotion stirs more controversy for the reasons that I stated right from the begining, and I am having a hard time seeing how you can logically think that Dan's promotion was somehow non-controversial, and Tim's was "shady."

However, let me restate exactly where our disagreement lies just so I can understand.

Exhibit A: Someone petitioned for themselves (Dan A.) to get promoted to the highest "Modern Arnis based" rank in the States in there own style (MA-80 in this case), one that is based off modern arnis, by 4 seniors/peers.

Exhibit B: A group of junior students (who were not all Tim students, and were black belts under Remy Presas; most of who were Remy's students first and formost) petitioned Seniors (in this case 2) for an individual on that individuals behalf to get them promoted to there next rank in Modern Arnis, not their own style.

You think Exhibit B is somehow "Shady" and Exhibit A is somehow O.K.. I think that this is wrong. I think that when you look at the "bare-bones" facts, niether one is SHADY. I would contend that Exhibit A leaves more room for arguement due to the mere fact that the individual petitioned for himself in Exhibit A.

I'll contend my point through example: Let's say I were to be deemed "King of the Universe." Which would be better, a following of people petitioning for me, then eventually crowning me "King of the Universe," or I petition for myself to be deemed "King of the Universe," and I hope to God that people will agree with my title later on? See what I mean? Now I don't think that Tim or Dan thinks that they are King of the Universe; I was just using the obscure example to make my point. But you see; I feel that it is more "valid" for people to work on your behalf to get you any rank or award, rather then you work on your own behalf.

Also, in Exhibit A, the individual created his own "style." This causes more contention for controversy in that "Is this 'style' valid"? It was based off of Modern Arnis, so is there enough seperation between the two for it to be considered it's own style? I am not saying that Dans style is "invalid", but I am saying that this leaves more to contend then Exhibit B.

So, this was just Exhibit A and B; where our 'point of disagreement' lies. What about the 5 other major possible points of contention that I mentioned? These points of contention are are non-existant in Tim's promotion. Are these of non-importance somehow?

Well...I don't know. I'm fine with you being "O.K." with Dan's promotion. What I can't figure out is how you can honestly conclude, after logically looking at all the facts, that Tim's promotion was somehow "Shady," and Dan's was non-controversial. The only reasoning I can think of is that your biased against Tim Hartman. I know the same arguement can be made against me, that I am biased for Tim Hartman. However, I think that it is important to look at facts and logic to overcome our biases. When Looking at facts in logic, I just don't see how your arguement "fits."

Some other points to be addressed:

Number of Senoir Sign off's: This is a mute point. Dan got 4 instructor sign off's, Tim Got 2. This doesn't matter in reality, but you pointed this out as if it does. Tim didn't get more then 2 sign-offs because we didn't feel he needed more then 2. He could have obtained more then 2 easily. He could have got more then 4 easily. I am sure that Dan could have obtained more then 4 also. If this was thought to matter, then Modern Arnis seniors would all be in a contest to see who could get the most sign-offs. This would be ridicules. So, How many instructors actually signed off on the promotions is a mute point.

World Soke Council: This doesn't particularly validate anything. This Council evaluates a situation and gives out awards. Dan got a founder of the year award from them. Tim got Modern Arnis Man of the Year award. These are nice awards, but the council is only there to recognize achievements, it doesn't validate someones "rank" or even "style." In other words, The Soke Council doesn't validate Tim's Rank or Dan's Rank, or Dan's Style because it is not designed for that purpose.

I mention this because you twice mention the WSHC as somehow making Dan's rank more valid then an Organizational promotion (WMAA). This can't really be the case when you look at what the WSHC is designed for. Bottom line: Dan was ranked through MA-80 with instructor sign-offs. Tim was Ranked through WMAA through instructor sign-offs. WSHC doesn't make the difference one way or the other from a promotional standpoint.

So, these are some points of contention, Tim K. I don't expect to change your views, for only you can do that for yourself. I just want to see things from your viewpoint (which I am having a difficult time doing) and allow you to see things from mine.

Respectfully,

Paul Janulis

Disclaimer: I am not contending that anything that Dan Anderson does is "invalid" here. I am just bringing up possible points of contention, and argueing facts. :asian:

 

[Cruentus]

Good points. I didn't think that you were finger pointing, but it could have been construed that way.

Nice Post.

 

[Cruentus]

Nice Post, Paul Martin!

You ask some very interesting questions, and bring up some interesting thoughts.

One question, though, regarding this...

I just don't like it when someone makes a post and someone else tries to play FBI Profiler to sift through secret motivations and agenda's

Who dat? Is this just in general or are you refering to someone specific? I'm and not trying to put you on the spot, but I honestly don't know exactly who you might be refering to here.

I like this one:

Argue the evidence/observable details and that reduces the pettiness that can lead to mayhem.

I couldn't agree with you more. That is why in this case I do try to set my personal biases aside to logically look at the facts.

:asian:

PAUL