I WISH ALL TEACHERS,MASTERS,GUROS,SHIHANS,SIFUS WHAT EVER HIGH RANK YOU ARE GET TOGETHER AS ONE ORGANIZED SANCTIONED BODY MAKE EVERY ONE PROVE THEIR INDIVIDUAL WORTH IN THE WORLD OF MARTIAL-ARTS THEN WE WOULDNT HAVE ALL THIS NONSENSE ABOUT WHOS REAL AND WHOS NOT. THERE ARE SO MANY WHO SHOULDNT TEACH YET THEY DO! IM THREE YEARS NEW TO THE ARTS BUT HAVE SEEN SO MUCH IN THE PHILIPPINES,CHINA,JAMAICA,USA IVE PERSONALLY BEEN THERE ITS ALL THE SAME EGO,FAME,FORTUNE WHAT HAPPEN TO THE ART I STILL BELIEVE ITS THERE PLEASE GO BACK TO WHERE YOU STARTED THINK THOSE PURE THOUGHTS OF UNITY,HONESTY,LOYALTY,FREINDSHIP,COMRODEREE THATS MORE IMPORTANT THAN RANK,MONEY,FAME ALL THOSE COME TO THE GOOD AND IF THEY DONT OH WELL YOU DONT NEED THEM SOMEONE ELSE DOES JUST KEEP TRAINING AND HELP YOUR FELLOW MAN ITS BETTER TO GIVE THAN RECEIVE. RICK ARGENTI-BROWN BELT
KenpoSterre
Purple Belt
please don't use all caps. Its considered yelling, is hard to read, and rude.
KenpoSterre
Purple Belt
but you have some very good points there.
Dan Anderson
Master of Arts
Rick,ricthedic said:
Have you read the thread about the Worldwide Brotherhood of Modern Arnis. This is what we are trying to do.
Yours,
Dan Anderson
Darkmoon
Orange Belt
I am surprised every time people bring up belt rank and not ability or knowledge on a subject. After reading a good number of the posts... they remind me of kids yelling at each other on the playground over whose bike is better when they are odiously equal. Dan is great leave him be. Thanks to Paul and Rich.
Dan Anderson
Master of Arts
Hi Dark,
Thanks. In all fairness to Rick, he's new on the site and probably hasn't had the time to read ALL the posts, positive and negative, to get a balanced view. From what I've read, he's got a good heart.
Yours,
Dan Anderson
PS - Ahhhhhh, Rich and Paul have played a part in my development. It's up to history to decide whether it's been good or bad. (lol) Actually, Rich and Paul are good eggs.
Thanks. In all fairness to Rick, he's new on the site and probably hasn't had the time to read ALL the posts, positive and negative, to get a balanced view. From what I've read, he's got a good heart.
Yours,
Dan Anderson
PS - Ahhhhhh, Rich and Paul have played a part in my development. It's up to history to decide whether it's been good or bad. (lol) Actually, Rich and Paul are good eggs.
Cruentus
Grandmaster
stanly stud
Blue Belt
old thread but why not the Gracies give themselves red belts...
isshinryuronin
Senior Master
This is an old post, resurected, but it's a slow day today.
In the early days of Okinawan karate there was no rank; just teacher (licensed by the master) and student. Then, levels of teacher evolved: Renshi, Kyoshi (Miyagi Chojun was the first), and Hanshi. Back then, "styles" (which were not so much personal ones, but known mostly by the town they were practiced in) were not such a big thing - many of the masters cross-trained in other styles and with each other. Okinawa was a small place and offered little chance for imposters. The dan and belt system of judo's Kano would not be adopted there till early 1930's.
(note: In the interests of brevity, I may be taking slight liberty with specific timeline and some minor details)
So, the question is regarding, if there were no previous Kyoshi, Hanshi, or, 8th, 9th or 10th degree black belts, how did one get to become one? Who had the authority to promote Miyagi to Kyoshi if there were no superior Hanshi, or to 8th dan if there was no 9th dan? The answer is "no one."
Such promotions were done by committee and consensus (in the Oriental custom). The top guys (from the various styles) all knew each other and held each other in high esteem. They got together and as a group gave out rank. The first such group was the Butoku kai. Later on, it was the All Okinawa Karate and Kobudo Assn. This group awarded Tatsuo Shimabuku and Hohan Soken their Hanshi title. There was no question of the validity of such honor - It was given by their peers who's own reputations were beyond reproach.
Sadly, but perhaps unavoidably, that did not carry over into the Western world and across the decades. Karate got too big and splintered, a victim of its own success. This affected Shotokan and TKD somewhat less than the Okinawan styles. These styles, in Japan and Korea were more institutionalized from the start than the Okinawans, and when exported to the West, retained some organizational integrity. There are some Western dojos that do keep ties with Okinawa and are usually known for high standards (Not to say there aren't independent dojos that do so, as well)
Conformity is not a big imperative in the West (especially the US) as in the Orient. We tend to "do our own thing" and not care so much what others think. Peer pressure and acceptance is not as highly valued. So it is, I think, that we find no consistency in high rank. In too many cases, rank is just a piece of paper. Each high rank must now be judged on the individual's teacher, skill and knowledge, and cannot be taken at face value.
In the early days of Okinawan karate there was no rank; just teacher (licensed by the master) and student. Then, levels of teacher evolved: Renshi, Kyoshi (Miyagi Chojun was the first), and Hanshi. Back then, "styles" (which were not so much personal ones, but known mostly by the town they were practiced in) were not such a big thing - many of the masters cross-trained in other styles and with each other. Okinawa was a small place and offered little chance for imposters. The dan and belt system of judo's Kano would not be adopted there till early 1930's.
(note: In the interests of brevity, I may be taking slight liberty with specific timeline and some minor details)
So, the question is regarding, if there were no previous Kyoshi, Hanshi, or, 8th, 9th or 10th degree black belts, how did one get to become one? Who had the authority to promote Miyagi to Kyoshi if there were no superior Hanshi, or to 8th dan if there was no 9th dan? The answer is "no one."
Such promotions were done by committee and consensus (in the Oriental custom). The top guys (from the various styles) all knew each other and held each other in high esteem. They got together and as a group gave out rank. The first such group was the Butoku kai. Later on, it was the All Okinawa Karate and Kobudo Assn. This group awarded Tatsuo Shimabuku and Hohan Soken their Hanshi title. There was no question of the validity of such honor - It was given by their peers who's own reputations were beyond reproach.
Sadly, but perhaps unavoidably, that did not carry over into the Western world and across the decades. Karate got too big and splintered, a victim of its own success. This affected Shotokan and TKD somewhat less than the Okinawan styles. These styles, in Japan and Korea were more institutionalized from the start than the Okinawans, and when exported to the West, retained some organizational integrity. There are some Western dojos that do keep ties with Okinawa and are usually known for high standards (Not to say there aren't independent dojos that do so, as well)
Conformity is not a big imperative in the West (especially the US) as in the Orient. We tend to "do our own thing" and not care so much what others think. Peer pressure and acceptance is not as highly valued. So it is, I think, that we find no consistency in high rank. In too many cases, rank is just a piece of paper. Each high rank must now be judged on the individual's teacher, skill and knowledge, and cannot be taken at face value.
stanly stud
Blue Belt
this...
dvcochran
Grandmaster
If that is what rank is to you then it is 100% true.
That being said;
Is there any kind of vertical structure in what you do for a living?
Do titles ever change?
Does experience and time on the job qualify you for additional pay or benefits?
Does having additional knowledge or skill add to your responsibilities?
If any of these are true, then what is the difference in someone being recognized after 20,30, or 40 years of effort and contribution to their MA?
I fully get the "you have to be able to walk the walk" mentality. But there is just more to legitimate rank than what is being implied.
stanly stud
Blue Belt
there are people who deserve it but there are black sheep out there. I remember watching some Grand master of an atemi style of ju jitsu just touching people & they were suddenly "stunned" most of it utter BS. Where i live i know a so called Master who did a few systems not to a great degree & Hey Ho made up his own style where heĀ“s a "Grand Master"
dvcochran
Grandmaster
Sure. Similar statements can be said of people at every rank and belt level.
We too often live in a world where the exceptions set the standard for peopleās perception. So perception ends up being reality for some people. Even when they know little to nothing about the subject.
Ranking is more about organization and management than anything else. Yes, it is definitely a merit system which Usually requires great effort to move through.
Sadly there are legitimate con artists in everything. Even more sad are the people who do not even know they are doing the con.
The quality high ranking people I know who have a little grey hair do not worry too much about how they would fare in the ring any more. The good ones are thinking about integrity in their style and sometimes just keeping a style alive.
Martial Arts has very many facets to it.
stanly stud
Blue Belt
yes i understand your thoughts here. However some of these charlatans teach things that might get their poor naive students hurt in a real fight.
dvcochran
Grandmaster
To be sure, there is some buyer beware in MA classes just like anything else. So much has been debunked I feel this is much less of an issue than it used to be.
stanly stud
Blue Belt
seen some funny videos of so called Black belts in BJJ
Stanley, when will these people ever learn that it's useless to fight over paper certificates and arbitrary ranks when facing the reality of....
FOOM FOOM FOOOM!
