8-year-old girl's marriage ruled legal

[Edmund BlackAdder]

It's all right to get upset. The idea of a child being molested is abhorent. But child brides happen in many cultures, and in fact in some here in the US, they see it as perfectly fine. We of course rightly see them as total wack jobs. Who is right? I don't know, but I myself am more concerned with the issues at home than anyhing that goes on elsewhere.

 

[blindsage]

Since it's been established that sex is not involved in this relationship at this point then half of this thread is meaningless.

something needs to be said

Saudi law is based on Islam. It is a Sha'ria country after all

this decision as made by consulting Islam

that means ISLAM CONDONES THIS

after all, the prophet married a 6 year old.....

Actually Saudi law is based on a specific interpretation of Islam called Wahhabism which the vast majority of Muslims outside of Saudi Arabia do not follow. Saying ISLAM CONDONES THIS is evidence that you need to do more research.

 

[elder999]

Actually Saudi law is based on a specific interpretation of Islam called Wahhabism which the vast majority of Muslims outside of Saudi Arabia do not follow. Saying ISLAM CONDONES THIS is evidence that you need to do more research.

<tongue in cheek mode "on">

No more research is needed. Islam is evil, a religion of violence, one that condones forced conversion, violent acts,the burning of books, the withholding of real education, the destruction of priceless artifacts,the ffeding of puppies to cats, and the exploitation and subservience of all females. This case is just one more in a long line of evidence that stretches back to before 9/11 and the '72 Olympics and proves that the Islamic world-like the Klingons in Star Trek-The Undiscovered Country-can't be trusted,and just aren't like us and never will be. :lfao:

<tongue in cheek mode "off"> :lfao:

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Never Trust A Klingon!!!!!!!!!!
[yt]-CSCQ-fSnfs[/yt]

 

[Gordon Nore]

It's all right to get upset. The idea of a child being molested is abhorent. But child brides happen in many cultures, and in fact in some here in the US, they see it as perfectly fine. We of course rightly see them as total wack jobs. Who is right? I don't know, but I myself am more concerned with the issues at home than anyhing that goes on elsewhere.

Quite so. It seems to me that there are countries in the world that do not operate specifically under any interpretation of Muslim law, where women and children are actively traded as commodities for sexual tourism.

 

[Twin Fist]

yeah, because they SAY there wont be sex, lets just not worry about it.....

I dont need to do anything, as I am pretty well defined on right and wrong. My mother saw to that.And Elder can talk as much crap as he wants to, i dont think too highly of Islam, For good reason. Aside from all the death, and killing, and everything else:

the PROPHET married a 6 year old and had sex with her when she was 9

No muslim is allowed to say that the prophet was WRONG, (even if some do say that in private)therefore, i stand by my statement, ISLAM CONDONES SEX WITH KIDS, even if some muslims do not condone the practice, thier religion DOES

Moral relativism is the last refuge of those too scared to stand up for what is right.

Actually Saudi law is based on a specific interpretation of Islam called Wahhabism which the vast majority of Muslims outside of Saudi Arabia do not follow. Saying ISLAM CONDONES THIS is evidence that you need to do more research.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Behold now, I have two daughters which have not known man; let me, I pray you, bring them out unto you, and do ye to them as is good in your eyes.

 

[JadecloudAlchemist]

Given the Prophet married a 6yr old looking at life expectancy back then the average person lived to about 50. If we are going to equivalent by todays standards that average life is 66 yrs of age. Then 6yrs of age is about 16yrs equivalent and 10yrs is 26yrs equivalent based on life expectancy in that time period. It really is difficult to compare children by standards of 7th century A.D. and compare it with 21st century A.D. Also concerning Aishah age some debate if she really was 9 when she was married or older.
http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/...sh-AAbout_Islam/AskAboutIslamE/AskAboutIslamE

 

[blindsage]

yeah, because they SAY there wont be sex, lets just not worry about it.....

I dont need to do anything, as I am pretty well defined on right and wrong. My mother saw to that.And Elder can talk as much crap as he wants to, i dont think too highly of Islam, For good reason. Aside from all the death, and killing, and everything else:

the PROPHET married a 6 year old and had sex with her when she was 9

No muslim is allowed to say that the prophet was WRONG, (even if some do say that in private)therefore, i stand by my statement, ISLAM CONDONES SEX WITH KIDS, even if some muslims do not condone the practice, thier religion DOES

Moral relativism is the last refuge of those too scared to stand up for what is right.

I'm not condoning moral relativism, I'm condoning education. Moral fanaticism is the first refuge of those too scared to admit they could be wrong.

 

[grydth]

Behold now, I have two daughters which have not known man; let me, I pray you, bring them out unto you, and do ye to them as is good in your eyes.

Behold, I have two young daughters, too...... and anyone who does them had best be faster than a speeding bullet, as they will need to be. Should I ever owe a Saudi a debt, they'll have to make do with American Express Travelers Checks and not one of my kids.

In a more serious vein, this has been an educational thread..... it appears that the offense has gone from suspected pederasty to the simple fact that females have no rights at all in some parts of the world.

I guess that they can do whatever they want in their own nation, without our intervention. But it doesn't mean we have to approve it... and I'm getting dead tired of a line of US Presidents telling us this bunch is "our friends."

 

[Big Don]

pederasty is the sexual molestation of BOYS, although, THAT is common in Muslim countries also...

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Behold, I have two young daughters, too...... and anyone who does them had best be faster than a speeding bullet, as they will need to be. Should I ever owe a Saudi a debt, they'll have to make do with American Express Travelers Checks and not one of my kids.

In a more serious vein, this has been an educational thread..... it appears that the offense has gone from suspected pederasty to the simple fact that females have no rights at all in some parts of the world.

I guess that they can do whatever they want in their own nation, without our intervention. But it doesn't mean we have to approve it... and I'm getting dead tired of a line of US Presidents telling us this bunch is "our friends."

Actually, my quote is from the Christian Bible.

 

[JadecloudAlchemist]

homosexuality is condemned and forbidden by the holy law of Islam, but there are times and places in Islamic history when the ban on homosexual love seems no stronger than the ban on adultery

As said by Bernard Lewis.

despite strong Shar&#8216;i disapproval, the sexual relations of a mature man with a subordinate youth were so readily accepted in upper-class circles&#8230; The fashion entered poetry, especially the Persian.&#8221;

As said by Marshall Hodgson.

pederasty is the sexual molestation of BOYS, although, THAT is common in Muslim countries also...

Couldn't it be said of Catholic priests which according to:

With wine and boys around, the monks have no need of the Devil to tempt them, an early Christian saying from the Middle East

Pederasty was a common practice in just about every place.
I think pederasty differs from molestation both as definations and action.
Pederasty means love of boys,adore,cheerish,passion. Though Erasthai could mean Lover does not mean there is sexual interaction though most likely was IMO it was a mutual,cultural,and social concent where Molestation means
to force physical and usually sexual contact on. It does not fit the defination of Pederasty which may or may not have sexual interaction.

 

[Scott T]

Behold now, I have two daughters which have not known man; let me, I pray you, bring them out unto you, and do ye to them as is good in your eyes.

Genesis 19:8.

Behold now, I have two daughters which have not known man; let me, I pray you, bring them out unto you, and do ye to them as is good in your eyes: only unto these men do nothing; for therefore came they under the shadow of my roof.

Basically saying that he's willing to let whoever he's talking too rape his daughters, but leave the males in the house alone since he's kinda responsible for them.

Interesting, and relevent, quote, Bob.

 

[Sukerkin]

yeah, because they SAY there wont be sex, lets just not worry about it.....

Precisely the same circumstance that was common throughout Europe for centuries and continued in the States too in the early years of it's establishment and expansion.

I dont need to do anything, as I am pretty well defined on right and wrong. My mother saw to that.And Elder can talk as much crap as he wants to, i dont think too highly of Islam, For good reason. Aside from all the death, and killing, and everything else:

That is not really a viable argument, especially as the Christian church has been responsible for far worse.

the PROPHET married a 6 year old and had sex with her when she was 9

That I can't comment upon. I do, however, agree that the foundings of the Islamic religion are just as shaky as that of the Christian and that the actions of it's founders are just as morally impeachable.

No muslim is allowed to say that the prophet was WRONG, (even if some do say that in private)therefore, i stand by my statement, ISLAM CONDONES SEX WITH KIDS, even if some muslims do not condone the practice, thier religion DOES

Eventually they will grow out of their mythical-sky-god type of idiocy. The West nearly did ... but not quite ... and I will bet that it will not be all that long before we see a religious 'civil' war based precisely on that problem. When the dust settles, then the hegenomy of the West will likely be done and all emoting on the subject of religion fairly moot.

The fact that, if we could all just use our intelligence and cooperate, we could achieve a trully survivable society this time round will be a sad echo for the next time our species climbs out of the dark ages.

Moral relativism is the last refuge of those too scared to stand up for what is right.

This is the part that really intrigues me tho'. What is it that you refer to when you use the term "moral relativism"?

To me it means being able to distinguish between moral judgements that hold true in one framework that do not in another.

It's generally used to counter such things as condemnation of the actions that lead to the creation of the British Empire - when my forbears created that empire, the actions necessary to do so were not out of tune with their times. It is only looking back using our moral compass from today that what was done abrades on our sensativities.

 

[Twin Fist]

Come on, just TRY it, it isnt hard:

"thats wrong, period"

no buts, no conditional modifiers, no putting it in context, just say it is wrong, if you are capable of it

I'm not condoning moral relativism, I'm condoning education. Moral fanaticism is the first refuge of those too scared to admit they could be wrong.

 

[Twin Fist]

This is the part that really intrigues me tho'. What is it that you refer to when you use the term "moral relativism"?

when people are too friggin brainwashed to just say "thats wrong, period"

they feel some need to excuse it, like "thats normal over there" or, the ever popular "yeah, but X is so much worse"

you just did that one yourself Marc

it comes from a totally modern concept that we shouldnt be judgemental.

Which is horsecrap

want to know why there is so much outlandish behavior these days? because people let it happen, and they dont want to be mean, so they make excuses for bad behavior.

"well, it's their culture, we cant really judge it"

"well, sure islam is bad, but in the DISTANT PAST chrisitanity was just as bad" as if it matters what happened long ago compared to NOW

excuses, excuses,excuses

and the thing is, the excuses might be 100% true, but they are also irrelevant to the discussion at hand. It DOESNT matter what christianity did in 1500, if that isnt what you are talking about.

as the country singer once said, "you got to stand for something or you'll fall for anything"

 

[Sukerkin]

Sorry, John. I agree that as far as my moral compass points, then, yes, such things are wrong.

But ...

... Morality (deliberate capitalisation) is not an absolute. It is ever manipulated by who you are, where you are born and when you grew up.

It is precisely because morality is not absolute that the USA is considered by certain countries and peoples to be one of the most immoral nations in the world - a direct result of the actions it has taken to ensure it's present (temporary) prime of place at the top of the heap.

If morality were an absolute, then everyone would see that the value set that can be averaged from the past administrations of the States was clearly the way forward for all. But they don't.

I don't think we can resolve this dichotomy in our stances - certainly not via the Net. A decade or two of long conversations into the night over a few beers might do the trick (by mutual agreement to agree to disagree I would guess) but not a handful of soundbites on a computer screen.

 

[arnisador]

"well, sure islam is bad, but in the DISTANT PAST chrisitanity was just as bad" as if it matters what happened long ago compared to NOW

Distant past? Molestation of children, keeping women who follow their faith or live in countries where they are in the majority from access to birth control, fighting evolution and other forms of science, spreading their creed of intolerance of those who think differently from them...they've got plenty to answer for right now.

 

[Carol]

I think its wrong. Period.

If the relationship gets sexual before the child is of proper age than that is wrong. However, There are plenty of traditions (even in not-so-progressive countries) that would support the child staying with their parents until they are of age. My concern is that in the outcry over something that hasn't happened, the "crimes" that ARE happening are getting lost.

I don't have an issue with arranged marriages when the child is an adult, entering in to the process willingly, with a family that doesn't have any ulterior motives. There are gazillions of marriages that were/are performed in precisely this way. No issue from my side.

When children are set up to be married, by definition that arrangement has an ulterior motive other than the child's happiness. A child is being "sold", for money, status, political power, whatever. I think that is wrong.

In this case, not only is the child being "sold" but they are also being "sold" to an unnatural match. This I think is wrong. The disturbing pattern of how its generally female children that are exploited is also something that I think is wrong.

And yes, if one adds the sexual element, the scenario gets much, much worse. However, there is plenty wrong with this picture even if the marriage isn't consummated before the child comes of age.