5 year old black belts?

[arnisador]

I think it is a little strange that you assume all of them will be ready to grade for 3rd dan in the minimum time..

People that reach an as advanced level as this tend to progress at different paces anyway and the last thing on their minds should whining about the progress of others.

We're talking about 18 year old third degree black belts here. I have problems with calling that "advanced".

 

[Sylo]

Here's my 2 cents.

I believe in the old saying "age is just a number". Because think about it. There are plenty of people who are up in age, who cannot do some of the same things that the 5 year old can do.

With that being said.. do I believe a 5 year old should be BB? No. I think those who possess the required skills, techniques, and mental capacity of the rank, should be black belts. Everyone has certain "levels" of skill, that will peak and never get any better regardless of training. Someone who is obviously doing their 100% best, and doing everything they are capable of doing, should be able to attain black belt.

The issue is that much of the requirements for being a black belt, would be very hard if not impossible for a 5 year old to achieve. They just don't have the mental capacity or responsibility to be able to handle it. Its not just learning the moves, or memorizing a form. Being a black belt, means (to me) that you've achieved a level in which you have a firm grasp on all the techniques from white belt ---> black and that you can confidently explain where they would fit into a self defense equation. You not only know how to perform them, but in what situations they would be used in. You have a firm understanding of fight mechanics, and can apply what you have learned to different situations. You should also have the ability to pass on the knowledge to others, at least in a basic sense. Lastly, I believe that you maturity level should encompass your rank.

I find it hard to believe that there are any 5 year olds that would possess these abilities. The maturity level is just not there. I do not mind there being a JR. Black belt club. But I do not believe that these students should be pushed as if they were true dan ranks. People get the misconception that their 5 year old is on the same level as a 30 year old who has spent the past 4-5 years training. I think thats what bothers people most about it.

For example the other night at class. There 2 kids, probably 8-9... in front of me when we were doing bag drills.. he had the blue belts (me) and the red belts in a line together. The 2 kids were high rank red.. which is one rank before recommended black belt. All they did the entire time was mess with each other (brother and sister) and kept me from training properly. My instructor was busy, due to an abundance of people coming in to sign up, and the parents were watching so I was afraid to get on to them. Although they weren't black belt, they were close enough that BY NOW.. they should have much more respect, especially for those older than them. Their technique was non existant. They might as well have been white belt. I don't blame the instructor though. He'd have to close his doors if he actually ranked these kids at the rate they progress.

I just think there should be an age limit to when you can join a club.. right off the bat..

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Well said, Sylo!

 

[mango.man]

Although they weren't black belt, they were close enough that BY NOW.. they should have much more respect, especially for those older than them. Their technique was non existant. They might as well have been white belt. I don't blame the instructor though. He'd have to close his doors if he actually ranked these kids at the rate they progress.

And that pretty much sums it all up. It is all about the almighty $$$ for most, if not all, instructors.

 

[Sylo]

And that pretty much sums it all up. It is all about the almighty $$$ for most, if not all, instructors.

Yeah. and while I don't agree with it. I do understand why my instructor does do it. He knows who the "true" students are, and I get top notch instruction regardless. I try not to worry too much about it. Most of them will never remember they even went to TKD years down the road. While I'll be teaching . The general public looks at TKD school almost like a "extended summer camp". Its not something thats supposed to take more than a year or 2 to complete.. regardless of skill level or comprehension.

The instructors have to make a living. Thats why I don't lump this scenario in with what people consider mcdojos. My instructor doesn't do it because he's trying to scam people out of money. He does it because thats the only way he can stay in business. You have to remember.. there are some really ruthless parents out there, that just won't understand why after a year, their 5 year old is still yellow belt.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Anyone who would put a blackbelt on a five year old is doing both the parent and the child a disservice and is doing a disservice to the school. That may not be their intent, and perhaps in order to keep their school open, they may feel that they have to, but I find the practice abhorant.

Daniel

 

[Sylo]

Anyone who would put a blackbelt on a five year old is doing both the parent and the child a disservice and is doing a disservice to the school. That may not be their intent, and perhaps in order to keep their school open, they may feel that they have to, but I find the practice abhorant.

Daniel

Like I said.

I do not agree with it. But I do know that if he didn't do it, I wouldn't have a place to train.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Like I said.

I do not agree with it. But I do know that if he didn't do it, I wouldn't have a place to train.

I hear you. Thats why I say I find the practice abhorant.

I try not to judge the schools that do so because I do understand that in order to stay open, many must churn out blackbelts two years from the student's entry into the class, regardless of their age, or the customers will just go elsewhere and spend their money at a place that does.

Our dojang has some poom rank black belts that really are a bit young to wear a black belt, though none are as young as five. With the current economic climb and some schools in our local area having closed, a school does what it must to keep the doors open. To be fair, these kids are okay and some show a lot of potential to be very, very good dan rank students. Also, they didn't quit after first poom, so they and their folks get points from me for that.

Daniel

 

[Sylo]

I hear you. Thats why I say I find the practice abhorant.

I try not to judge the schools that do so because I do understand that in order to stay open, many must churn out blackbelts two years from the student's entry into the class, regardless of their age, or the customers will just go elsewhere and spend their money at a place that does.

Our dojang has some poom rank black belts that really are a bit young to wear a black belt, though none are as young as five. With the current economic climb and some schools in our local area having closed, a school does what it must to keep the doors open. To be fair, these kids are okay and some show a lot of potential to be very, very good dan rank students. Also, they didn't quit after first poom, so they and their folks get points from me for that.

Daniel

My goal in training, besides self defense and excercise is to eventually open my own school. This area is SEVERELY lacking in good martial arts training. My instructor is getting up in age, and I'm not sure how much longer he would continue. My idea is to have a "KIDS ONLY" program that goes up to at least 12. What it would consist of is a simplifed version of the adult curriculum. Since most of the kids enrolled, are here for either: A. babysitting B. they don't like Sports. I'd explain to the parents beforehand that the program is especially designed for kids, and has nothing to do with the adult program. The only link they would have is, that once they have reached the highest rank in the kids class and reached age 12 they could then move to the adult program, in which time they would have to start over at white belt. The program would not have a "black belt", because I would reserve that color for the adult class. Maybe something "kid friendly" to keep them motivated. That way, the parents can put them in and take them out at will, and it will in no way affect them once they are of age to join the adults. They will still get the same confidence building training they would otherwise, but they wouldn't taint the quality of the school. I may get less kids this way, but I think it would work if I lay everything out to the parents from the get go.

thoughts?

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I think that is a very good idea.

Daniel

 

[arnisador]

And that pretty much sums it all up. It is all about the almighty $$$ for most, if not all, instructors.

That's a bit harsh. If you want a nice, well-appointed, well-staffed martial arts school to train at and want it to still be there 5 years from now, your instructor will almost surely have to teach kids. I've seen too many adults-only schools that moved from a studio to a garage to non-existent as the studio's bills mounted and the relatively small number of dedicated adults (plus the slightly larger but fluctuating number of interested adults who came-and-went as jobs changed, marriages occurred, etc.) couldn't support it. It may be to your benefit as serious adult to have kids at the school too. Plus, your instructor is an adult with a family and deserves a good living just like anyone else. Teaching kids may mean he or she has enough staff to qualify to offer health benefits for his or her employees.

As an imperfect analogy: If you like pro baseball, you need to understand that it stands on the backs of minor league, college, high school, and ultimately Little League ball. The kids you find boring to watch and undisciplined now will be having their HRs reviewed by instant replay some day.

I too prefer an adults-only school. But that's a tough business model. In a large city or a college-supported club you can have some of those. In a smaller town it's a lot harder.

Now, ranking issues are another matter and I'm of the "at least 16 years old for black belt" school of thought. Kids need frequent reinforcement, though--like daily gold stars in kindergarten.

 

[Sylo]

That's a bit harsh. If you want a nice, well-appointed, well-staffed martial arts school to train at and want it to still be there 5 years from now, your instructor will almost surely have to teach kids. I've seen too many adults-only schools that moved from a studio to a garage to non-existent as the studio's bills mounted and the relatively small number of dedicated adults (plus the slightly larger but fluctuating number of interested adults who came-and-went as jobs changed, marriages occurred, etc.) couldn't support it. It may be to your benefit as serious adult to have kids at the school too. Plus, your instructor is an adult with a family and deserves a good living just like anyone else. Teaching kids may mean he or she has enough staff to qualify to offer health benefits for his or her employees.

As an imperfect analogy: If you like pro baseball, you need to understand that it stands on the backs of minor league, college, high school, and ultimately Little League ball. The kids you find boring to watch and undisciplined now will be having their HRs reviewed by instant replay some day.

I too prefer an adults-only school. But that's a tough business model. In a large city or a college-supported club you can have some of those. In a smaller town it's a lot harder.

Now, ranking issues are another matter and I'm of the "at least 16 years old for black belt" school of thought. Kids need frequent reinforcement, though--like daily gold stars in kindergarten.

I'm not sure if thats exactly what he meant. But, as I think I have already addressed. My instructor doesn't mind teaching kids. But he does want them to learn, and move up at the rate they are supposed to. But, due to the "parents" of these kids.. and not so much the kids themselves.. He is forced to move them along at some sort of pace. Yes, he will fail a student that is blatantly not doing their best. But, he will conf. with the parents to try to find out why the student is not trying. Sometimes kids will TRY very hard, and once they get to the next rank.. they'll forget everything. Its just the nature of kids, and thus why they don't belong at such a high rank. My teacher doesn't promote anyone for the money.

he charges 35 a month, and 10 when you test. That barely covers the cost of the belt. When you hit black its a bit more.. but you also get a new gi top, a embroirdered belt, and a framed oversized certificate. Some instructors just have to do it, to keep students. The good students will shine, regardless.. and thats how I look at things.

 

[jim777]

At the last (multi-school) breaking seminar I went to, I was in a group of 6th kyu to 4th kyu students (being a 6th kyu student myself at the time), and one 4th kyu student was about 5 years old, tops. He was far smaller and younger looking than even my 6 year old 9th kyu son, who was the youngest at the seminar from our school. He not only couldn't break a half inch board, but he cried a lot and seemed completely disinterested in anything going on around him. Now, I know the head instructor at that student's school, and he is a great, motivated instructor and a really good guy as well. But the bottom line is you can't teach the intricacies of the more complex moves to high ranking deserving students if you have to close your doors because you can't make the rent.
Recently somebody posted something along the lines of "1 in 100 students stays to 1st Dan, and 1 in 1000 1st Dans stay until 2nd". You don't get to teach any 2nd Dan candidates without teaching a lot of people who will fail out, drop out, or just flat out quit because it's a lot tougher than sitting on the couch pounding popcorn. You determine who you'll take and who you'll turn away, and you do your best from there. And if you're lucky enough, and a good enough instructor you might get to make a living at it, but even that isn't a guarantee.

 

[Kacey]

I have a question for you... how do you deal with students who receive their second degree before your son, even though he has been a first degree longer.
For example, we have a 15 year old at our dojang who is a 2nd degree (has been for a year) and he can not test for 3rd until he is 18. There are students who received their 2nd dan after him, but who will be able to test for 3rd before him due to this age restriction. At that point those students who were once his juniors will now be his seniors. I don't really see any way around this, but at the same time it doesn't seem quite right this way either. What do you think?

People test past other people all the time; one of my seniors was a yellow belt (8th gup) when I was a red belt (1st gup) - but due to life events (grad school, divorce, etc.) that caused me to stay at II Dan for 7 years, he tested past me. That's the way life is. Why would it be different for younger students?

 

[Mimir]

I think it is a little difficult to pick an age and say that there cannot possibly be a black belt at that age because of "whatever" reason. A lot of it depends on the individual and how well they have assimilated the training. My daughter earned her 1st dan at the age of 14. Thing is, she tested with several others and she had to do exactly the same things that the others had to do. She was given nothing, she earned her belt. My point is that just because the student is younger, does not mean that they cannot learn.

 

[IcemanSK]

People test past other people all the time; one of my seniors was a yellow belt (8th gup) when I was a red belt (1st gup) - but due to life events (grad school, divorce, etc.) that caused me to stay at II Dan for 7 years, he tested past me. That's the way life is. Why would it be different for younger students?

You bring up the point well Kacey. Life happens & folks test past others all the time. I was a 2nd Dan for 19 years. A guy who's 1st gup board I sat on for is now a 6th Dan. It happens too when a family goes on vacation on test day: others will test past them. It's not an issue that someone "got screwed out of something." It's just circumstances.

 

[Sylo]

I think it is a little difficult to pick an age and say that there cannot possibly be a black belt at that age because of "whatever" reason. A lot of it depends on the individual and how well they have assimilated the training. My daughter earned her 1st dan at the age of 14. Thing is, she tested with several others and she had to do exactly the same things that the others had to do. She was given nothing, she earned her belt. My point is that just because the student is younger, does not mean that they cannot learn.

I think thats exactly whats being said. Maybe not in those words. There are always exceptions to a rule. I've seen some 7 year olds who can do things I wouldn't imagine. But they aren't the majority.

 

[Gizmo]

For example the other night at class. There 2 kids, probably 8-9... in front of me when we were doing bag drills.. he had the blue belts (me) and the red belts in a line together. The 2 kids were high rank red.. which is one rank before recommended black belt.

[snip]

Their technique was non existant. They might as well have been white belt. I don't blame the instructor though. He'd have to close his doors if he actually ranked these kids at the rate they progress.

Actually, I know schools who hand out high belts like candys and others who put all candidates though really hard tests in my country as well. Surprisingly, the two that came to my mind have quite a big number of students, but only one is widely respected here as a good school, and if you meet a black belt from there, you are pretty sure that you have a tough fighter in front of you.

I have kid students aged 8 or 9, training with me for 2-3 years, proudly wearing their yellow belts because they were taught that this is the right level for them to be at the moment. They are moving slowly up the ranks because they were taught that a black belt is not something you may achieve just by attending an XXX number of classes. I have no one under 12 wearing a blue belt. My youngest BB passed his 1st Dan 4 months before his 18th birthday and has been with me for some 8 years before testing for this rank.

The funniest thing is, we are the biggest school in town, one of the biggest in the area and we are just starting our 15th year of existence. We don't make too much advertising because we don't have enough place in the gym for people wanting to train, in fact we only do accept kids at the moment as the adult group is full.

Back when I started, I was one of the youngest members of the club (14 years of age at the time). It took us a year and a half to be allowed to test for 9th and 8th Kup. I made an 8th Kup back then and I still remember that particular grading. It took me 9 years to get to 1st Dan and I don't regret any minute of it.

So, in this case, I will definitely blame the instructor for not teaching his students the value of the rank...

 

[arnisador]

People test past other people all the time

Indeed, if this isn't happening some of the time, it's hard to believe that promotion is based on merit rather than mere seniority.

 

[Laurentkd]

People test past other people all the time; one of my seniors was a yellow belt (8th gup) when I was a red belt (1st gup) - but due to life events (grad school, divorce, etc.) that caused me to stay at II Dan for 7 years, he tested past me. That's the way life is. Why would it be different for younger students?

I think the difference is, that this kid will be training hard the entire time being just as committed (if not more) than others, but he'll just be held back because of age. So while he is a 2nd dan for maybe 4 years, adults who come up behind him can test after only 3 years. I guess he'll just be that much better when he does test for 3rd (which is all that really matters) and hopefully who stands in front of him in line doesn't matter.
I do believe their should be some age restrictions with rank; I am in no way against that. It was really just more of a hypothetical question that this thread got me asking myself. As others have said, most people are not ready to test at the minimum time requirement... that is why it is called a minimum.