5 year old black belts?

[Traditionalist]

I think anyone under 17 getting a blackbelt is a joke. you're always going to have your exceptions but you base your rules on the norm. Everytime I see a kid with a blackbelt on I want to go over and jerk it off of them. If you are going to start saying they are black belt quality for their age then they shouldn't be on the same level as adults (hence that is where the term junior blackbelt comes in). If I see an organization with kids running around with blackbelts on then I just remind myself that the ole-mighty-dollar usually speaks the loudest.

 

[Traditionalist]

Don't make the piece of cloth around your waist mean something that it doesn't.

Exactly. and the black belt around a 5 yr olds waist or a 14 yrs old waist isn't a blackbelt. Its a receipt.

 

[arnisador]

Exactly. and the black belt around a 5 yr olds waist or a 14 yrs old waist isn't a blackbelt. Its a receipt.

I'll be using this line myself. Thanks!

 

[mango.man]

I think anyone under 17 getting a blackbelt is a joke. you're always going to have your exceptions but you base your rules on the norm. Everytime I see a kid with a blackbelt on I want to go over and jerk it off of them. If you are going to start saying they are black belt quality for their age then they shouldn't be on the same level as adults (hence that is where the term junior blackbelt comes in). If I see an organization with kids running around with blackbelts on then I just remind myself that the ole-mighty-dollar usually speaks the loudest.

I am just curious if you have ever had the urge to rip the black belt off of an adult for any reason. Say perhaps a retarded adult at age 30 but with the brain capacity and behavior of a 10 year old. Would you rip his or her black belt away and tell them that they are not worthy of the rank? Just wondering.

 

[Tez3]

I am just curious if you have ever had the urge to rip the black belt off of an adult for any reason. Say perhaps a retarded adult at age 30 but with the brain capacity and behavior of a 10 year old. Would you rip his or her black belt away and tell them that they are not worthy of the rank? Just wondering.

Do you mean someone who is mentally handicapped?

 

[mango.man]

Do you mean someone who is mentally handicapped?

No, I meant retarded. Feel free to look it up in the dictionary if you need to.

 

[terryl965]

OK everybody lets stay nice

 

[Bob Hubbard]

No, I meant retarded. Feel free to look it up in the dictionary if you need to.

Retard \Re*tard"\, v. t. [imp. & p. p. Retarded; p. pr. & vb.
n. Retarding.] [L. retardare, retardatum; pref. re- re- +
tardare to make slow, to delay, fr. tardus slow: cf. F.
retarder. See Tardy.]
1. To keep delaying; to continue to hinder; to prevent from
progress; to render more slow in progress; to impede; to
hinder; as, to retard the march of an army; to retard the
motion of a ship; -- opposed to accelerate.

2. To put off; to postpone; as, to retard the attacks of old
age; to retard a rupture between nations.

Syn: To impede; hinder; obstruct; detain; delay;
procrastinate; postpone; defer.

 

[tshadowchaser]

slow or limited in intellectual or emotional development : characterized by mental retardation

 

[tshadowchaser]

Even with those explanations I have seen those with handicaps both mental and physical wear a black belt and do it more justice than some with out disabilities

 

[Kacey]

I am just curious if you have ever had the urge to rip the black belt off of an adult for any reason. Say perhaps a retarded adult at age 30 but with the brain capacity and behavior of a 10 year old. Would you rip his or her black belt away and tell them that they are not worthy of the rank? Just wondering.

Do you mean someone who is mentally handicapped?

No, I meant retarded. Feel free to look it up in the dictionary if you need to.

Speaking as a special education teacher, the two terms may, or may not, be synonymous. "Mentally handicapped" is a term that may refer to "mentally retarded" - and is considered to be more politically correct - but may also refer to mental illness, traumatic brain injury, or a total lack of sense.

In either case, I would have to consider the instructor and organization granting the belt, as well as the demonstrated abilities of the person wearing the belt, before I could determine my opinion. I have known a great many people with "mental handicaps" - including mental retardation, traumatic brain injury, a total lack of sense, as well dyslexia (not knowing right from left is a significant problem in many patterns), bipolar disorder (medicated and otherwise), along with other conditions often lumped into the category of "mental handicap" - and I have known people in every category who were talented, capable martial artists of various ranks, including black belt, who well deserved the rank they had been awarded - just as I know quite a few who lacked the label "mentally handicapped" (and in some cases should have been so labeled) who didn't deserve the rank they had been awarded.

"Mental handicap", like "retarded", is a label, short-hand for a wide range of abilities and/or disabilities, depending on your perspective, and neither, by themselves, are bars to a person achieving a legitimate black belt. It may take longer; such a condition may make the journey more difficult than for the mythical "average" person - but that condition is only one piece, and is not, by itself, a bar to attaining the rank of black belt.

So to answer your question - no, I would not "rip away" the black belt of "retarded adult at age 30 but with the brain capacity and behavior of a 10 year old". I might talk to the person's instructor - for all I, or you, know, it may have taken that person 20 years to learn the required material, but it was learned.

Have I ever had the urge to take a belt away from an adult? Yes, I have... but it had nothing to do with any "disability" the adult was known to have; nor is reason relevant to a discussion about rank compared to ability.

 

[terryl965]

No 5 year old can be a BB period.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

I was recently at a party where one mother said her ten year old had just gotten a black belt. Two which a few minutes later my twelve year old said to me: what a joke!

I think it comes down to people trying to equate expert with black belt when the black belt status has been eroded with countless unqualified people having one. Add to it that every organization does things differently and walla the meaning or prestige of it has been significantly reduced. Things that cannot be reduced as much is if someone is a teacher/trainer/instructor/coach etc. and they produce quality practitioner's. Still in the end it all is subjective!!!

 

[jks9199]

To all users:

Please keep the discussion at a mature and respectful level. This includes recognizing that some terms may have acquired loaded and offensive meanings beyond their dictionary definitions, especially without very specific context. Please consider this when posting.

jks9199
Moderator

 

[BrandonLucas]

I think it comes down to people trying to equate expert with black belt when the black belt status has been eroded with countless unqualified people having one.

This is what it boils down to, folks. Blackbelt = expert. At some level. How can a 5 year old be an expert at anything? It took them 5 years and 9 months to get to the point in life where they are, from conception to present time. It took almost that long for me to earn my 1st dan.

The different dans, different degrees of blackbelt are the different degrees of expert experience. 1st dan = expert knowledge of the basic and intermediate techniques....2nd dan = expert knowledge of basics, internediates, and partial advanced techniques...etc.

So, if a 5 year old has a blackbelt, at 1st dan, we're saying that he/she has expert knowledge of the basic and intermediate techniques. The 5 year old doesn't even have expert knowledge of the basic motor skills!

Just throwing that out there.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Just a clarification to all: most systems do not categorize first dan or its equivalent as being expert. Usually it just means that they have a solid grasp of the basics. Most that use the yudansha system don't categorize someone as a master until after third dan, usually fourth or fifth at least.

Daniel

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I think anyone under 17 getting a blackbelt is a joke. you're always going to have your exceptions but you base your rules on the norm. Everytime I see a kid with a blackbelt on I want to go over and jerk it off of them. If you are going to start saying they are black belt quality for their age then they shouldn't be on the same level as adults (hence that is where the term junior blackbelt comes in). If I see an organization with kids running around with blackbelts on then I just remind myself that the ole-mighty-dollar usually speaks the loudest.

Out of curiosity, what is so special about seventeen? Personally, I think that the kukkiwon's break of fifteen for dan ranks is about right. Most teens are physically mature enough by that point to where I wouldn't have concerns about serious serious injuries, as I would with young kids, and if they can pass the same test as an adult, then why not?

I think that that is my biggest concern with most younger blackbelts: they don't take the same test that the older teens and adults do.

And no, I never have the urge to jerk the belt off of them. Its tied to them, so I'd have to undo the knot first, at which point it will fall off anyway, no jerking required.

But more importantly, why treat the student with such disrespect? The issue shouldn't be taken up with the student but with the instructor.

As an instructor, I have inherited kids with blackbelts who really didn't deserve them. Rather than penalizing the student, I tell them where they need work and that the goal is to get their skills to the level of the belt that they have. This is after they've been handed their hats by a greenbelt and don't understand how this could have happened.

Ultimately, the goal should be to train up the student to be of the highest quality that they can achieve, not police belts given out by someone else.

Daniel

 

[Sylo]

This is what it boils down to, folks. Blackbelt = expert. At some level. How can a 5 year old be an expert at anything? It took them 5 years and 9 months to get to the point in life where they are, from conception to present time. It took almost that long for me to earn my 1st dan.

The different dans, different degrees of blackbelt are the different degrees of expert experience. 1st dan = expert knowledge of the basic and intermediate techniques....2nd dan = expert knowledge of basics, internediates, and partial advanced techniques...etc.

So, if a 5 year old has a blackbelt, at 1st dan, we're saying that he/she has expert knowledge of the basic and intermediate techniques. The 5 year old doesn't even have expert knowledge of the basic motor skills!

Just throwing that out there.

Like has already been said..

regardless of whether or not one things belts should have meaning. They are there as a measure of ones skill level in the art. Now, this can be measured in different ways. But the general concensus see it as a way to measure physical ability and overall knowledge of the art and its application as it pertains to combat. So, to see a 5 year old wearing a black belt is to think "Hey, this kid knows his art in and out and would know how and why he is using the techniques he is using in a real situation".
Unfortunately, there are very few.. if any 5 year olds I know.. that have this gift. It certainly isn't ordinary, and in a case where my be legitimate.. the child would have to be more intelligent than most people 3/4x his age. It just doesn't happen.

We've got some red belts in our class, that in "my eyes". Shouldn't be. They have the attention level of gnats, and their techniques look like that of fresh white belts. They "know" the moves, but I have never seen either of them do them correctly. However, I do imagine they have the time "served" as they come almost every single day. While someone like myself, whose ability is alot better.. and I can actually perform the moves correctly.. I only come 2-3 times a week. So, while I know that time served counts for something... skill and ability should still be the overrall deciding factor. Unfortunately, if we used that mentality.. most schools would shut down.. since for some stupid reason. Most parents think this is a summer camp or babysitting service.. rather than a martial arts training school.. go figure that right?

My rule of thumb is, I don't worry about them. I know my training is where it needs to be, and I know where I stand. As far as I am concerned.. they are not in the same league as I am, and so I do not pay attention to them or how good or bad they do. As long as I am getting better and improving.. the color of my belt will mean something to those who see me in action.

 

[StuartA]

To all users:

Please keep the discussion at a mature and respectful level. This includes recognizing that some terms may have acquired loaded and offensive meanings beyond their dictionary definitions, especially without very specific context. Please consider this when posting.

jks9199
Moderator

Ill second that!

As a parent of a child with Down Syndrome, whom I hope to see achieve his black belt one day, referrences of that nature are hurtful and uncalled for (even if said out of ignorance).

Regarding the topic at hand, my son is 5, yes I hope to see him get a BB one day and if its something he wants then I'll do my damest to help him achieve it.. but I dont want anyone to give it to him "just because.." despite his condition. He has a long road to travel, in his short life he has been in hospital more times than I have in my whole life, had a double hole in the heart opertation and has low muscle tone (amongst other things) and I think to see him earn his BB will be one of the proudest moments of my life and Ill be dammed if anyone will take that way from me cos they give out grades to all... IF he gets it, it will because he wants it and is prepared to do what his needed to earn it.. if not, then he shouldnt have it!

I saw a t-shirt once (that was unfortunatly too small for him) otehrwise I would have brought him it, it said:

"You laugh at me because I'm different
I laugh at you because your the same"​

These words speak volumes IMO!

Stuart

 

[bluekey88]

Qft