5 year old black belts?

This was one of the biggest complaints my Instructor had when he was teaching the kids class years ago. Parents would just dump their kids off for an hour and consider it cheap babysitting. He actually advised many parents to withdraw their kids because it was obvious the kids didn't care.
I will never allow what I teach to degenerate into a recreational activity to make 8 year olds happy and give them something to do. Don't get me started on 4 year olds. You start practicing when you're 4 years old, hypothetically get black belt (or junior black belt) at 7 or 8, and then what? What exactly can you do? You can't teach; you really can't compete in major tournaments; you truly won't understand what it is you're doing until maybe teens.
But starting when you're 12, you get black belt by 14-15, right when serious peer pressure starts. By the time you're 18-19, you are probably 2nd Dan, and in a good position to really help out and mature.
I think Instructors who allow very young children to make black belt are looking for money and exposure, neither of which I need (not that badly anyway). I'd rather stick with older kids and know that I'm making a difference.
 
I think, YoungMan, that you're veering off the topic of very young black belts into teaching philosophy - I know my response to you did, so I've started another thread here, instead.

To return to the original topic, I think that unless you can truly understand what you're learning, and the implications of using what you've learned, you shouldn't be a black belt - but I've met some very mature tweens and teens, and some very immature adults. Ultimately, rules need to exist to maintain the standards of the art, and those rules need to be tempered with the instructor's judgment; some students who meet the age requirements don't have the maturity, and some with the maturity don't meet the age requirements. Do I think children under 10 or 12 should be black belts? Not in general - but I do think they can be great students, and work toward their black belts while they learn the skills, and gain the maturity, to earn their black belts.
 
I don't think I did. I stated how I felt about very young black belts and why I felt the way I did. Perhaps in a roundabout way, but explained nonetheless.
 
YoungMan said:
I don't think I did. I stated how I felt about very young black belts and why I felt the way I did. Perhaps in a roundabout way, but explained nonetheless.
Click to expand...

As I said, my response definitely veered off, which is why I started another thread. I see a difference between teaching young children, and awarding black belts to young children; since my response focused more on teaching than rank, I started another thread.

I think the key to being a black belt is maturity, rather than age - but age is more quantifiable than maturity, and easier to make rules about.
 
I think I have a bigger problem with kid black belts, who do not know their forms, stances, techniques proficiently. Than the principal of a kid having one. Anyone who can perform their techniques to the proficiency dictated by age and skill level.. deserves his or her rank. However, Its like illogical that a 5 year old has the mental or physical capacity to maintain any of those tasks. In other words, if your a black belt.. it should show. We have a few high rank kids who are probably 9-10... no black belts.. but they are higher than me in rank. This sometimes bothers me.. mainly when they don't know their form that well, or they they just seem to not care about martial arts that much. I also know when running a business, you have to pay the bills. And by ticking off tons of parents, by holding their kid back.. its not really going to help business. But at the same time.. there are other ways to handle it.

IMO age is just a number.. but if you don't understand the concepts, the philosophy, and if you have to be led move by move through every form.. because have no idea what or why your doing it in the first place.. then no, you don't deserve black belt. It just so happens that most of the people who fit this mold are under the age of 12
 
"I also know when running a business, you have to pay the bills. And by ticking off tons of parents, by holding their kid back.. its not really going to help business. But at the same time.. there are other ways to handle it."

This is one reason why I don't recommend teaching professionally: you become a servant to the almighty buck. God forbid you upset parents. There goes your income when they remove their kid from your class. Better to teach on the side and do it the way you feel is right.
 
and honestly.. TKD wasn't designed with a business scheme in mind.. it was for fighting, and fighting only.

So, sure if you try to teach a class with the same principles as they had back then, its not gonna go over well.

I agree though, that you cannot just do everything parents want.. but thats the choice they make when they decide to take it public and teach kids in the first place.
 
Not even gonna post reasons against this.. to me, a 5 year old black belt is:

a. A fantasy for the parents ego based on getting lots of £££
b. see A

Stuart
 
A five year old black belt.... what? Did he start at three? Or maybe two? There's a federation with competition ranks for 6-8 year old blackbelt students. Pretty silly. It would be nice if the organizations would counsel these teachers regarding what a blackbelt is supposed to be, but I guess the cashflow is too much to ignore. Sad.

Daniel
 
I am dead set against 5 yr old black belts..
 
YoungMan said:
But starting when you're 12, you get black belt by 14-15, right when serious peer pressure starts.
Click to expand...

Wow. 2 years to black belt. Anyone who thinks this is acceptable would not last in my school or any school I came through.
Two years to me is roughly halfway to black belt and I will put any of my 2-years students against a typical 2-year black belt.

AoG
 
Celtic Tiger said:
A five year old black belt.... what? Did he start at three? Or maybe two? There's a federation with competition ranks for 6-8 year old blackbelt students. Pretty silly. It would be nice if the organizations would counsel these teachers regarding what a blackbelt is supposed to be, but I guess the cashflow is too much to ignore. Sad.

Daniel
Click to expand...

Well I inherited a six year old BB and of course he is KKW certified. The problem is he knows nothing and the parent do not want him demoted at all and said they paid alot of money for training for him to get it. I swear some peole have no earthly ideal what a BB stands for anymore.
 
terryl965 said:
Well I inherited a six year old BB and of course he is KKW certified. The problem is he knows nothing and the parent do not want him demoted at all and said they paid alot of money for training for him to get it. I swear some peole have no earthly ideal what a BB stands for anymore.
Click to expand...
Aint that the truth! They base it only on what they can see: the money they spent. They have no concept of the work that goes into what a real blackbelt is. If the kid can't do the moves, then he or she shouldn't be wearing the belt. Period. But hey, they paid money, so their kid is entitled.

If they have a problem, they shouldn't complain to you anyway; they should go back and ask the instructor that gave their kid the blackbelt and ask why their kid got a belt and still knows nothing.

Daniel
 
This situation brings to light a problem with a large certifying organisation. The KKW has to trust that the 4th Dan who signed the kids paperwork is legitimate and truthful regarding the kids abilities (and age).

If, instead of saying if you are 4th Dan or above you can promote someone they were to say that you could only promote someone if you have the KKW "seal of promotion" or whatever you want to call it then they would retain some control by the possibility of being able to remove the "seal of promotion" and not let certain instructors promote people.

If we look at what that instructor (the one who promoted the kid) was doing along with the risks involved we find that they made a lot of money from these parents and had absolutely no risk to themselves. They will spend the rest of their lives promoting kids whose parents have money because the 4th Dan/ability to promote cannot and will not be taken from them. If they ran the risk of losing the ability to promote people they might have thought twice about it.

No system of certification is perfect (I work in the computer industry and I have met a lot of people with certifications who know nothing) but the risk of losing the "license to promote" might change a few peoples minds.
 
ArmorOfGod said:
Wow. 2 years to black belt. Anyone who thinks this is acceptable would not last in my school or any school I came through.
Two years to me is roughly halfway to black belt and I will put any of my 2-years students against a typical 2-year black belt.
Click to expand...

Likewise.

I could see someone who is exceptionally gifted and dedicated being ready in three years (for an adult or even a well-disciplined late teen, but not a child). In fact, it's not all that uncommon. Someone who has been training for it 10-15 hours a week for 36 months is quite likely going to be a stronger candidate than one who has put little into it beyond showing up for a 90-minute practice two or three times a week over the course of four years.

But I can't imagine someone (starting from scratch, that is) who's so exceptional that, inside of two years, they have acquired not only the knowledge and proficiency to gain the black belt but also the experiential background to wear it well. (And I'm not talking about knot tying.)

Dan
 
ArmorOfGod said:
2 years to black belt. Anyone who thinks this is acceptable would not last in my school or any school I came through.
Two years to me is roughly halfway to black belt
Click to expand...

I agree. In fairness, in some arts it's usual--usually classical Japanese arts that focus on only a single weapon and focus on fencing in some sense with it.
 
Actually, in our organization, two years to black belt is about right. You will have some good students and some not so good. If it takes longer than 2-3 years, the question becomes why did it take you that long to attain black belt?
 
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