2000 and counting...

[Bob Hubbard]

I did some "Number Crunching", the findings are below. I'd appreciate it if folks would check my numbers anf if you have more current figures, please update where appropriate.

I also found this:
U.S. Deaths in Iraq: A Historical Perspective
By James J. Na
Foreign Policy Fellow at the Discovery Institute, a Seattle think-tank.
http://www.dasa.mod.uk/natstats/deaths/intro.html


===========

US Numbers based on http://www.census.gov/main/www/popclock.html
US Population (estimated) 294,338,558
Iraq Population (estimated) 24,001,816 (July 2002 est.)

Iraq population death rate: 5.66 deaths/1,000 population (2004 est.)
http://www.indexmundi.com/iraq/death_rate.html

US population Death rate: 8.34 deaths/1,000 population (2004 est.)
http://www.indexmundi.com/united_states/death_rate.html


US Troop strength in Iraq: Aprox. 140,000
Deaths to date : 1,034
% strength killed : .74%
Death Rate: 7.39/1,000


Normal Non-Combat death rates (by Navy)
http://www.safetycenter.navy.mil/statistics/ashore/recreation/default.htm
Military Fatalities and Rates
Navy 5.73/100,000
Marine Corps 6.46/100,000
Navy/Marine 5.96/100,000

British Forces:
During the 10-year period 1994 to 2003, the Tri-Service standardised mortality rate has fluctuated between a high of 94 per 100,000 strength in 1995 and a low of 64 in 1996. In 2003, the rate. at 82 per 100,000 strength was the highest since 1995, primarily dur to the conflict in Iraq
http://www.dasa.mod.uk/natstats/deaths/intro.html




Resource:
U. S. ACTIVE DUTY MILITARY DEATHS PER 100,000 SERVING - 1980 through 2002
http://web1.whs.osd.mil/mmid/casualty/Death_Rates1.pdf
See also : http://web1.whs.osd.mil/mmid/casualty/castop.htm

WAR ON TERRORISM - OPERATION IRAQI FREEDOM
As of September 4, 2004
BY CASUALTY CATEGORY WITHIN TYPE
http://web1.whs.osd.mil/mmid/casualty/OIF-Total.pdf

See Also: http://www.ac.wwu.edu/~stephan/USfatalities.html

 

[Flatlander]

Couple of things, here. First, Kaith, the reference you quoted for the Iraqi death rate does not detail where they get their info from, but did call the figure an estimate. I'm curious as to whether those figures take into account what's going on there right now, or if they deal only with 'natural causes'.

Second, let's spin the argument a bit. If one is of the mindset that the Iraqis are generally seeing too many unecessary deaths due to the current occupation, how do we think that those figures would change had Iraq never been invaded? Saddam killed a LOT of people, though I speculate that finding an accurate source for those numbers would be next to impossible, given the context. I imagine many of those executions went unreported. However, there is a possibility for a peace in Iraq because of the occupation that *should* eventually come to bear fruit, with time, whereas there was no likelihood of Saddam or his heirs ever slowing down their murderous ways.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

The US Deaths to Date figure I pulled from an earlier post of mine, which also contained a breakdown to hostile/nonhostile, and I believe provided links to more indepth details.

For the Iraqi data, at the bottom it states the info came from the CIA
2 additional sources are below:

Iraq : Death rate 6.21 deaths/1,000 population
http://www.mapzones.com/world/middle_east/iraq/dataindex.php

Iraq : 9 deaths per 1000 people (2000 figure)
http://www.worldata.org/Y/2000/1 VP/General/Demography/Deaths/%/V/Total Population/vp_ok.htm

 

[kenpo tiger]

Reasons why they (arabs in the mid east) hate the US?

Different values (the whole christian/islam thing)
US military bases in the Holy Land (sacrilige)
US continued backing of Israel (Who is a police state, and regularly engages in it's own atrocities, as well as defys UN and international laws)
US two facedness (we flip flop on who we support. Remember, we sold Sadamn those WMD we now can't find...)
Just plain spoiling for a fight.

It's not about Freedom. They like their own versions well enough. We, to them are the corrupt ones.

Facts please. And don't forget the treatment of Israelis captured by the Syrians during the 73 War - chopped into small pieces while still alive and tossed back across the border. My proof of that? My friends in the Israeli army who retrieved the remains.

 

[Phoenix44]

They hate us because we are free? Thanks for enlightening me.

I thought maybe they hate us because we have a President who doesn't care about what the rest of the world thinks. Or maybe because we invaded a sovereign nation after our administration lied to the world about a "rationale." Or maybe they hate us because our President is a friend of dictators like the Sauds. Or maybe they hate us because we talk about freedom while imprisoning, without charging, our own citizens who try to exercise their freedom of peaceful assembly in New York City. Or because our President insists on loyalty oaths from us free Americans who want to attend his speeches. Or because we're free, but one of the first things we did in Iraq, after "liberating" it, was to shut down a newspaper. Or because we insist on monitoring elections in other supposedly less free countries while refusing to accept international monitoring of our own elections, which many of our own people suspect are being tampered with. Silly me, in reality it's just as simplistic as "they hate us because we are free."

Funny, the entire world didn't hate us because we were free on 9/11/01. In fact, most of the rest of the world was very supportive of us, even though we were free on 9/11/01. There must be something else to it.

 

[Ronald R. Harbers]

Again I apologize for my simplistic view earlier yesterday.

 

[Makalakumu]

I did some "Number Crunching", the findings are below. I'd appreciate it if folks would check my numbers anf if you have more current figures, please update where appropriate.

I also found this:
U.S. Deaths in Iraq: A Historical Perspective
By James J. Na
Foreign Policy Fellow at the Discovery Institute, a Seattle think-tank.
http://www.dasa.mod.uk/natstats/deaths/intro.html


===========

US Numbers based on http://www.census.gov/main/www/popclock.html
US Population (estimated) 294,338,558
Iraq Population (estimated) 24,001,816 (July 2002 est.)

Iraq population death rate: 5.66 deaths/1,000 population (2004 est.)
http://www.indexmundi.com/iraq/death_rate.html

US population Death rate: 8.34 deaths/1,000 population (2004 est.)
http://www.indexmundi.com/united_states/death_rate.html


US Troop strength in Iraq: Aprox. 140,000
Deaths to date : 1,034
% strength killed : .74%
Death Rate: 7.39/1,000


Normal Non-Combat death rates (by Navy)
http://www.safetycenter.navy.mil/statistics/ashore/recreation/default.htm
Military Fatalities and Rates
Navy 5.73/100,000
Marine Corps 6.46/100,000
Navy/Marine 5.96/100,000

British Forces:
During the 10-year period 1994 to 2003, the Tri-Service standardised mortality rate has fluctuated between a high of 94 per 100,000 strength in 1995 and a low of 64 in 1996. In 2003, the rate. at 82 per 100,000 strength was the highest since 1995, primarily dur to the conflict in Iraq
http://www.dasa.mod.uk/natstats/deaths/intro.html




Resource:
U. S. ACTIVE DUTY MILITARY DEATHS PER 100,000 SERVING - 1980 through 2002
http://web1.whs.osd.mil/mmid/casualty/Death_Rates1.pdf
See also : http://web1.whs.osd.mil/mmid/casualty/castop.htm

WAR ON TERRORISM - OPERATION IRAQI FREEDOM
As of September 4, 2004
BY CASUALTY CATEGORY WITHIN TYPE
http://web1.whs.osd.mil/mmid/casualty/OIF-Total.pdf

See Also: http://www.ac.wwu.edu/~stephan/USfatalities.html

Good Post. This will take me some time to go through. Do you feel like these numbers support a postion that Iraq is not as dangerous as we think? I have suspected something similar, so it is interesting to actually crunch the numbers and do something I was trained to do.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Facts please. And don't forget the treatment of Israelis captured by the Syrians during the 73 War - chopped into small pieces while still alive and tossed back across the border. My proof of that? My friends in the Israeli army who retrieved the remains.

I'll dig up my notes on the Israelis and post the short summary.
Please note, I never said the Palestinians were saints either. Both sides are engaged in some pretty disgusting stuff.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

My take on the number is that it's not as bad as certain media and alarmists make it out to be. That said, I won't be vacationing there anytime soon either.

 

[Phoenix44]

Funny thing about Israelis: They don't target school buses and dance clubs.

 

[PeachMonkey]

Funny thing about Israelis: They don't target school buses and dance clubs.

They do, however, shoot children who throw rocks.

I don't think you can attach perfect moral equivalency to the acts of Palestinian terror groups and the IDF, but Israel's behavior is not faultless.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Don't forget driving over peaceful protestors with construction equipment as well.
Maybe thats only bad when you use tanks?

Anyway, heres the info and link to the whole brewhaha. Theres more in there...this as the gas on that fire.

Originally posted 4-14-2004

You point at the Chinese....what about the Israeli?
Right now their leader is being applauded by W, despite having a record as vile as Saddam. Towns raized, populations slaughtered to the last, the Red Cross denied access, etc.

How can you compare Sadam to Israel's Leadership? Get educated before you make remarks like that!!!!!

Israeli issues:
http://www.socialistworker.org/2004-1/480/480_07_PalestinianLives.shtml

What the U.S. media ignored is that since the last Palestinian suicide bombing in Haifa on October 4, Israeli forces have carried out dozens of raids and attacks. These assaults have killed 117 Palestinians, injured hundreds more and destroyed enough houses to leave thousands of Palestinians without shelter, according to a tally by Palestinian commentator Ali Abunimah.

But for the U.S. corporate media--its horizons defined by loyalty to the U.S. agenda in the Middle East--a period of intense Israeli violence still counts as a "lull" in the conflict. In fact, just two days before the suicide bombing, more than 40 Israeli military vehicles--supported by Apache helicopters--staged an assault on the densely populated Rafah refugee camp in southern Gaza.

Media Blackout Over Israeli Atrocities in Nablus
Monday, 5 January 2004, 12:19 pm
Press Release: Palestine Media Center - PMC
http://www.scoop.co.nz/mason/stories/WO0401/S00014.htm

Palestinian witnesses said Amjad Bilal Al-Masri, 15, was shot in the chest by an IOF sniper as he threw stones at an Israeli armored vehicle from a rooftop in the Old City of Nablus.

Al-Masri and Rawhi Shuman - a 19-year-old shot in the chest in a separate incident - died of their injuries in the city’s Rafidya hospital, medics said. Amer Arafat, 25, was shot in the back and pronounced dead upon his arrival to hospital. During the funeral of the three, IOF shot and wounded another teenager, 17-year-old Mohammed el-Masri. Hospital officials later pronounced him dead. Witnesses said he was helping to carry the coffin of his cousin Amjad el-Masri when he was shot.

Press Release from the Palestine Red Crescent Society (PRCS)
Oct 18 2000
Emergency Medical Services (EMS) of the Red Crescent

To-date 24 of our ambulances have been hit by live ammunition by Israelis in 42 separate attacks. 27 Emergency Medical Technicians have been injured, and one killed. PRCS has logged 47 incidents of denial of access to ambulances at roadblocks. EMS continues to utilize vehicles now in desperate need of repair due to lack of replacements and personnel. The 8 ambulances received from the Norwegian Red Cross are already working in the field.

Total Attacks on Ambulances by Israelis: 42

Total Ambulances Damaged (some vehicles attacked more than once): 24

Total EMT Personnel Injured: 27

EMT Killed: 1

Violations & Restrictions of Ambulance Access: 47

from: http://www.hoffman-info.com/palestine31.html

Rumors tell of dozens of Palestinian prisoners arbitrarily executed by the Israeli forces. Israeli army spokespersons allege that only gunmen have been killed in gun battles. But medics of the International Red Cross and United Nations officials have proven that the weapons of the executed Palestinians showed no signs of being fired.

From : http://www.cpusa.org/article/articleview/401/1/42/

One of the most notorious and controversial events of current conflict between Israel and the Palestinians was the April, 2002 Israeli invasion of Jenin Refugee Camp. For weeks, the Israeli army assaulted the camp with helicopters, tanks, bulldozers, and troops. Almost immediately, reports began to trickle out of Jenin about massive human rights violations occurring in the camp.

http://www.jenininquiry.org/


So...you were saying?

I know....they didn't drop folks into mulching machines while they were alive, and such.. so you're right, they aren't quite the same.

Terroism, barbarism, etc takes many forms. Here are a few.

Now, before someone starts screaming the 'anti-semitic' crap....(and I know someone will), I'm not. I look at the actions of a nation, not a religion here. I can easily fill a couple of hard drives with the crap done to Israel by arabsm nazis and others as well. This is to simply say "I have compared, and there it is. Go refute it if you can. I hope you can do so."

That is of course my point in many of these things.... "Here is what I found...please prove me otherwise."

 

[PeachMonkey]

And don't forget the treatment of Israelis captured by the Syrians during the 73 War - chopped into small pieces while still alive and tossed back across the border.

Disgusting, but one set of atrocities doesn't excuse another.

The Arab and Jewish settlers in the pre-Israeli state period committed countless tit-for-tat atrocities against one another... Ariel Sharon cut his teeth with this sort of brutality during the early days of the Haganah.

There's also the genocidal acts of the IDF and Christian Phalangist militia during the 1982 Lebanon invasion -- again, under Ariel Sharon.

Part of the IDF's own doctrine is a focus on "Purity of Arms" -- the concept that the IDF will use armed force only when necessary, only to the extent necessary, and always retain their humanity, never using force against non-combatants.

The common betrayal of this ethic in recent years has caused a great deal of internal strife within the IDF and Israeli society as a whole, and led to refusals to serve in the Occupied Territories.

 

[kenpo tiger]

Disgusting, but one set of atrocities doesn't excuse another.

The Arab and Jewish settlers in the pre-Israeli state period committed countless tit-for-tat atrocities against one another... Ariel Sharon cut his teeth with this sort of brutality during the early days of the Haganah.

There's also the genocidal acts of the IDF and Christian Phalangist militia during the 1982 Lebanon invasion -- again, under Ariel Sharon.

Part of the IDF's own doctrine is a focus on "Purity of Arms" -- the concept that the IDF will use armed force only when necessary, only to the extent necessary, and always retain their humanity, never using force against non-combatants.

The common betrayal of this ethic in recent years has caused a great deal of internal strife within the IDF and Israeli society as a whole, and led to refusals to serve in the Occupied Territories.

Peach,
You make a good point or two here. I am a little to the right of Attila the Hun when it comes to Israel and the Middle East and I freely admit it's a purely emotional rx borne of living there during the Yom Kippur War (aka the 1973 War) and serving in a civilian capacity aiding the Israeli Army. Many of my friends went into the service because they felt it was their duty. Many of them were returned in boxes -- and they were about your age.

There is probably no "correct" answer to the situation. In my mind it's similar to many of the other places where there are innocent casualties in the name of G-d, Freedom, or anything else extremists want to put forward. Make no mistake. There are extremists on ALL sides, including those pro and con for the war.

 

[PeachMonkey]

Many of my friends went into the service because they felt it was their duty. Many of them were returned in boxes -- and they were about your age.

I can definitely understand that. I have a similar response when people lecture Israel about withdrawing from the occupied territories, and when they refer to Israeli imperialism -- all forgetting, of course, that Israel occupied those territories in 1967 in order to protect themselves from an impending invasion by Egypt, Syria, Jordan, Iraq, and Saudi Arabia -- an invasion designed to wipe Israel off the face of the earth.

Not unlike the invasions of 1948-49, 1956, 1973 (which you witnessed), the War of Attrition from 67-70, and the near-constant guerilla warfare between Israel and various Palestinian groups.

I fully blame Israel for their acts when it's called for, and I think many of their policies of late have exacerbated problems rather than helping to solve them, but I can't exactly blame them for not trusting their neighbors.

 

[kenpo tiger]

I can definitely understand that. I have a similar response when people lecture Israel about withdrawing from the occupied territories, and when they refer to Israeli imperialism -- all forgetting, of course, that Israel occupied those territories in 1967 in order to protect themselves from an impending invasion by Egypt, Syria, Jordan, Iraq, and Saudi Arabia -- an invasion designed to wipe Israel off the face of the earth.

Not unlike the invasions of 1948-49, 1956, 1973 (which you witnessed), the War of Attrition from 67-70, and the near-constant guerilla warfare between Israel and various Palestinian groups.

I fully blame Israel for their acts when it's called for, and I think many of their policies of late have exacerbated problems rather than helping to solve them, but I can't exactly blame them for not trusting their neighbors.

I am compelled to agree with you on both counts. However, one must keep in mind that politics abroad are vastly different than ours, and sometimes the leadership makes decisions it deems best for the greater good. In the long run, Israelis just want to live peacefully and not have to wonder if the man or woman sitting next to them on the bus is wired for more than his or her MP3.

 

[PeachMonkey]

However, one must keep in mind that politics abroad are vastly different than ours, and sometimes the leadership makes decisions it deems best for the greater good.

KT, I think I understand what you're getting at, but I'm also quite sure (to invoke Godwin's Law) that Hitler made decisions that he felt best for the greater good, too.

Regardless of whether they think their decisions are best, Israel's powers-that-be have made some poor choices over the past few years.

Ariel Sharon's decision to appear at the Temple Mount, thus igniting the latest intifada, was one.

The map of the Palestinian Authority presented by Barak's administration was designed so that no Palestinian leadership that wished to survive could accept it.

And the decision to build a wall to partition off the Occupied Territories will simply further starve the Palestinians into rage, along with turning world opinion even further against Israel.

 

[kenpo tiger]

I hardly think you can compare the Israeli government and its officials to Hitler and the Third Reich (I know you were using it as an example, but please - find someone else!)

The wall exists because it has to. It will come down when no longer needed.

The newspaper said today that the US casualties in Iraq now stands at 1,043. The five dead listed were all Marines, average age 20, average rank, Lance Corporal.

 

[PeachMonkey]

KT,

My apologies for the choice of comparison -- it literally didn't occur to me how inappropriate it was until after I'd made it.

As for the wall, are you really convinced that the wall will stop attacks, and won't make the situation in the Occupied Territories worse, thus exacerbating the situation? Do you think perhaps terrorism could be combatted by Israel without punishing every civilian in the Territories?

 

[Flatlander]

Perhaps a new thread on that topic would be a good idea.