OP
- Thread Starter
- #101
i understand what you meant...i was just saying that with the "never-ending war" on terror...it seems like the death toll in iraq alone could reach that many...
2000 and counting...
- Thread starter bignick
- Start date
RandomPhantom700
Master of Arts
This thread is about the, by now, over 1000 American soldiers lost in the current war in Iraq, not the civilian losses of the September 11 terrorists attacks. Any connection between the two have been, to say the least, contested.
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Ronald R. Harbers
Guest
I just hope the death toll in America does'nt get reach that many again! I just wonder how many American lives have been saved by killing as many of those sorry sub-humans as we have?
OP
- Thread Starter
- #104
and how many decent people have we killed by invading iraq...not everyone in the middle east is a terrorist nor are the majority of people in the middle east terrorists...i won't debate the necessity of trying to shut down al qaeda...but there is no connection between iraq and al-qaeda as has been addressed in many a thread here...
September 11, 2001 was a horrible tragedy for this country and i'll never forget how i felt that day...but by calling the people of the middle east sub-humans you begin to rationalize our killing of them...certainly some people in the world are deserving of that classification but to say something like "by killing as many of those sorry sub-humans as we have.." stereotypes them all together...and it lets you forget that there are plain, innocent civilians on both sides...an iraqi civilian death is no more or less tragic than an innocent american death...we're all people, despite where we were born...
in afghanistan there were members of an organization that attacked the united states...this was our justification, along with ousting the taliban, of invading afghanistan...and i believe it was sound enough to go to war...our invasion of iraq had no such pretext...they wanted us to believe the links between al qaeda and iraq...and they wanted us to believe the wmd's....both of which have since proven to be false...showing that there was little to no justification for this war...making every death...no matter who it was and what side they're on even more tragic...because it was preventable...
September 11, 2001 was a horrible tragedy for this country and i'll never forget how i felt that day...but by calling the people of the middle east sub-humans you begin to rationalize our killing of them...certainly some people in the world are deserving of that classification but to say something like "by killing as many of those sorry sub-humans as we have.." stereotypes them all together...and it lets you forget that there are plain, innocent civilians on both sides...an iraqi civilian death is no more or less tragic than an innocent american death...we're all people, despite where we were born...
in afghanistan there were members of an organization that attacked the united states...this was our justification, along with ousting the taliban, of invading afghanistan...and i believe it was sound enough to go to war...our invasion of iraq had no such pretext...they wanted us to believe the links between al qaeda and iraq...and they wanted us to believe the wmd's....both of which have since proven to be false...showing that there was little to no justification for this war...making every death...no matter who it was and what side they're on even more tragic...because it was preventable...
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Ronald R. Harbers
Guest
Forgive me! But hate clouds my reason.:asian:
OP
- Thread Starter
- #106
Yes, it does...and there are probably a lot of people that agree with your statment....it's a knee jerk reaction...
being in the martial arts...i believe force is a viable option to use...otherwise i wouldn't be training all the time to use it...but its at the bottom of the list as far as i'm concerned...
if violence is the only option you've got left...it's the only option and certainly there are times when violence is appropriate...some people will never listen to reason and will insist on hurting others and themselves no matter what...when someone is a danger and you've got no choice...take them out...fast and hard...but make sure you think before you do...cause there will be consequences...and you'll need to live with them....this applies to situations involving personal self-defense as well as large scale conflicts like war...violence is very scalable...it works in the small situations and the big ones...as long as there are rational justifications for any situations...i have no problem with use of force
being in the martial arts...i believe force is a viable option to use...otherwise i wouldn't be training all the time to use it...but its at the bottom of the list as far as i'm concerned...
if violence is the only option you've got left...it's the only option and certainly there are times when violence is appropriate...some people will never listen to reason and will insist on hurting others and themselves no matter what...when someone is a danger and you've got no choice...take them out...fast and hard...but make sure you think before you do...cause there will be consequences...and you'll need to live with them....this applies to situations involving personal self-defense as well as large scale conflicts like war...violence is very scalable...it works in the small situations and the big ones...as long as there are rational justifications for any situations...i have no problem with use of force
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Ronald R. Harbers
Guest
Well said Bignick! But I think they hate us more than we could ever hate them. This is not a kneejerk reaction for me. They will kill me for their God, but I will kill them for my grandchildren.
FUZZYJ692000
Master Black Belt
"sub-human" or not they are still human! however, with that aside, it's very hard to go into a country that has such strong views of their own and tell them that they have to change. i'm not sure on which war, i believe it was WW II when the US tried to put soldiers in Iraq so that they could move into Western Europe and even then the Iraq people made it very clear that they didn't want us there and that we were not welcomed to stay.
it is really hard going into another country that does have strong religious beliefs too and tell them we're going to rebuild your government and oh by the way you can not have anyone in government that is a strong muslim believer. i stumbled across an article from the washington post...it's kind of contradictory to what they're trying to do in Iraq, i just found it interesting http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A24634-2004Sep15.html
plus, it is only natural that people would rebell against change. nobody likes change and that's why there were things in this country like the revolutinary war, civil war, civil rights movements (and some of the chaos that came with that), revolts and rebellions, there's always that 1 group that isn't going to go with the flow. it's just some handle things differently than others and this 1 particular group, not all of Iraq but a group of people within Iraq are the ones that don't want "us" to change it. it doesn't mean that all of those people in Iraq are these "sub-humans" that a lot of the media has them made out to be
it is really hard going into another country that does have strong religious beliefs too and tell them we're going to rebuild your government and oh by the way you can not have anyone in government that is a strong muslim believer. i stumbled across an article from the washington post...it's kind of contradictory to what they're trying to do in Iraq, i just found it interesting http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A24634-2004Sep15.html
plus, it is only natural that people would rebell against change. nobody likes change and that's why there were things in this country like the revolutinary war, civil war, civil rights movements (and some of the chaos that came with that), revolts and rebellions, there's always that 1 group that isn't going to go with the flow. it's just some handle things differently than others and this 1 particular group, not all of Iraq but a group of people within Iraq are the ones that don't want "us" to change it. it doesn't mean that all of those people in Iraq are these "sub-humans" that a lot of the media has them made out to be
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Ronald R. Harbers
Guest
I did'nt mean the the Iraqis were sub-human. I meant the God fearing terrorists were! There is a difference. Anyone who kills for God is sub-human! That's all I meant to say. People like them have killed in the name of God for too long.:angry:
FUZZYJ692000
Master Black Belt
unfortunately people have been killing people in God's name for many many years and i'm sure it's not going to stop any time soon. the Crusades being just one of the many wars fought because of religious beliefs. as long as we have different religions there will always be someone or some group that will try to justify their actions by saying it was in the name of God
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rmcrobertson
Guest
Strain of Iraq war showing on Bush, those who know him say
By Judy Keen, USA TODAY
...Bush believes he was called by God to lead the nation at this time, says Commerce Secretary Don Evans, a close friend who talks with Bush every day. His history degree from Yale makes him mindful of the importance of the moment. He knows he's making "history-changing decisions," Evans says. But Bush doesn't keep a diary or other personal record of the events that will form his legacy. Aides take notes, but there's no stenographer in most meetings, nor are they videotaped or recorded.
It's widely assumed that one reason Bush wants to rid the world of Saddam Hussein is to complete the mission his father, former president George Bush, began in 1991. The senior Bush led a coalition to eject Iraqi troops that had invaded Kuwait, but knowing that the U.N.-backed alliance was formed solely to liberate the country, he decided against going on to Baghdad to remove Saddam from power. People who know both men say this war isn't about vengeance. "It's not personal," one Bush aide says.
Rather, the president's passion is motivated by his loathing for Saddam's brutality, aides say. He talks often about his revulsion for Saddam's use of torture, rape and executions. He is convinced that the Iraqi leader is literally insane and would gladly give terrorists weapons to use to launch another attack on the United States.
The thought of another assault on the United States horrifies Bush. Aides say he believes history and heaven will judge him by his ability to prevent one....
...Bush copes with anxiety as he always has. He prays and exercises. Evans says his friend has a placid acceptance of challenges that comes from his Christian faith.
"He knows that we're all here to serve a calling greater than self," Evans says. "That's what he's committed his life to do. He understands that he is the one person in the country, in this case really the one person in the world, who has a responsibility to protect and defend freedom."
Lovely. Personally, I'm particularly appalled by the fact that this stuff is so easy to find, and nobody seems to give a hoot.
By Judy Keen, USA TODAY
...Bush believes he was called by God to lead the nation at this time, says Commerce Secretary Don Evans, a close friend who talks with Bush every day. His history degree from Yale makes him mindful of the importance of the moment. He knows he's making "history-changing decisions," Evans says. But Bush doesn't keep a diary or other personal record of the events that will form his legacy. Aides take notes, but there's no stenographer in most meetings, nor are they videotaped or recorded.
It's widely assumed that one reason Bush wants to rid the world of Saddam Hussein is to complete the mission his father, former president George Bush, began in 1991. The senior Bush led a coalition to eject Iraqi troops that had invaded Kuwait, but knowing that the U.N.-backed alliance was formed solely to liberate the country, he decided against going on to Baghdad to remove Saddam from power. People who know both men say this war isn't about vengeance. "It's not personal," one Bush aide says.
Rather, the president's passion is motivated by his loathing for Saddam's brutality, aides say. He talks often about his revulsion for Saddam's use of torture, rape and executions. He is convinced that the Iraqi leader is literally insane and would gladly give terrorists weapons to use to launch another attack on the United States.
The thought of another assault on the United States horrifies Bush. Aides say he believes history and heaven will judge him by his ability to prevent one....
...Bush copes with anxiety as he always has. He prays and exercises. Evans says his friend has a placid acceptance of challenges that comes from his Christian faith.
"He knows that we're all here to serve a calling greater than self," Evans says. "That's what he's committed his life to do. He understands that he is the one person in the country, in this case really the one person in the world, who has a responsibility to protect and defend freedom."
Lovely. Personally, I'm particularly appalled by the fact that this stuff is so easy to find, and nobody seems to give a hoot.
hardheadjarhead
Senior Master
Ronald R. Harbers said:I just hope the death toll in America does'nt get reach that many again! I just wonder how many American lives have been saved by killing as many of those sorry sub-humans as we have?
Sub-humans?
Okay, uber-mensch. Will Halliburton or Bechtel be building the ovens? Who has the contract?
Regards,
Steve
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Tkang_TKD
Guest
Does this include our Commander in Chief?Ronald R. Harbers said:
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Ronald R. Harbers
Guest
I mean everyone!
Uber-mensch? How dare you! You can coddle the terrorists if you choose. But I say we hunt them down and kill them all while we still have the muscle. The wolves are at the door, and this sheepdog can smell them!
Uber-mensch? How dare you! You can coddle the terrorists if you choose. But I say we hunt them down and kill them all while we still have the muscle. The wolves are at the door, and this sheepdog can smell them!
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Tkang_TKD
Guest
I'm glad you think that way (in regards to meaning everyone). Just a question (not attacking you, actually just curious), do you think that fighting a war in Iraq has to do with fighting terrorism, or do you think that the terrorist factions showing up in Iraq are as a result of our occupation?Ronald R. Harbers said:I mean everyone!
Uber-mensch? How dare you! You can coddle the terrorists if you choose. But I say we hunt them down and kill them all while we still have the muscle. The wolves are at the door, and this sheepdog can smell them!
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Ronald R. Harbers
Guest
Both! They were there before September 11, 2001, and they are going there now.
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Tkang_TKD
Guest
Interesting perspective. I know they are going there now, but I can only agree with before Sept. 11th if you are referring to Saddam and Sons. I don't particularly see Osama and Saddam seeing eye to eye.Ronald R. Harbers said:Both! They were there before September 11, 2001, and they are going there now.
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Ronald R. Harbers
Guest
They saw eye to eye alright! They hated Americans. In America you have the right to worship any invisible being you choose. Radical Islam will never accept that sort of freedom!
OP
- Thread Starter
- #119
neither will radical christianity
R
Ronald R. Harbers
Guest
Quite right guitarzan!
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