It just keeps getting worse over there.

[RCastillo]

You're right, you shouldn't have to like it. I don't like it either. I think there is no shortage of people who should be held accountable. My only issue was with the use of force you seem to endorse. We must agree to disagree on that one.

I'm curious though,

would you care to elaborate on this? Who, and how, are 'they'?

The mindset of the Arab. For example, they treat thier women like property, and committ heinous crimes against them.(Honor Killings) They even party afterwards, and have no problem bragging about it.

They talk about the respect for life, but are pure hypocrites. They want American help, but accuse us of corruption. They want to have their cake, and eat it too.

But to be fair, this country has to shoulder some blame. Many American Oil giants, like Shell were born there, and safe to say, we have a vested interest , since we get one forth of our nations oil from that part of the world.

Before they were living under a sad welfare state system under Saddam, and it's apparent they haven't learned a thing. Don't forget, Iran also owes them for that 8 year war Saddam put them through. I know they look upon with great interest. One may devour the other. When we do get out, they'll be crippled, and ripe for the picking, and it won't be us doing it. :asian:

 

[Flatlander]

I'm betting youre not a minority, so you have no historical perspective to speak from. What do you know about people being ignored, mistreated, and lied about?

.

You're right. I'm not a minority. I don't think that has any bearing. I understand suffering, and sympathize with those who have had to live under the deplorable conditions that they did under Saddam.

I know many Iraqi's who escaped during the Iran/Iraq conflict. I also know many Iranians who left at the same time.

They are all happy that Saddam is gone. They all have hope for a brighter future for their people. None are pleased with the way things are panning out there right now.

My issue is this, strike hard, or get out. You can't defeat the booby traps you can't see.

This is no longer the issue. The coalition forces are there now trying to restore power to the Iraqi people. They are no longer at war with Saddam. And they are doing all they can to root out the ones who are trying to incite the uprisings. But it will take time. And, yes, unfortunately more lives will be lost.

 

[jfarnsworth]

Don't get me wrong everone is entitled to thir own oppinon...

Yes that's correct. :asian:

but what would you rather have us do sit on are buts and wait for another 9/11?

Not at all. It's unfortunate that our people are having so many fatalities over there from the mass idiots who think their cause of cutting someone's head off is OK. It would be nice if the countries that have helped us so far would go in and bust the joints up one city at a time and whomever was left then they were left. These people were born, raised, and bread into the lives they live and it's been going on for thousands of years. Most likely it won't stop on june 30. My biggest concern is that when they decide to hand over Saddam the iraqi's don't lose their testicular fortitude and let him go. :asian:

 

[Flatlander]

My biggest concern is that when they decide to hand over Saddam the iraqi's don't lose their testicular fortitude and let him go.

Is this something they're thinking of, giving him back to the Iraqi's? Oh man, if they let him go that would be an atrocity.

 

[jfarnsworth]

Is this something they're thinking of, giving him back to the Iraqi's? Oh man, if they let him go that would be an atrocity.

Isn't that what all of the hoopla is about? We are to give Saddam to the people or interm government for all of his crimes? :idunno: If this happens and he walks we are all doomed. :asian: On another note they should have shot him in the skull in his spider hole. There were only a few people over there hunting for him and they could have said he put up a fight or something.

 

[Mark L]

And they are doing all they can to root out the ones who are trying to incite the uprisings.

How do you know this? Unless you are in communication with those in Iraq doing the rooting out, and are aware of all possible tactics to acheive the desired end, how do you know?

Consider a scenario, not far removed from events of the past few days: Abu Musab al-Zarqawi's terrorist organizaton is blowing up people, both Iraqi and American, in Fallujah. His exact location isn't known, but we're pretty sure he's in the city, so we issue an ultimatum. Turn him over or we level the city in 72 hours. Then do it. Plenty of time for civilians to bug out. Have we tried this? Do you really think we're doing all we can? What is your threshold, in terms of military and civilian casualties, before we use all means at our disposal to exterminate those terrorists trying to thwart the stabilization of Iraq? The same applies to Al-Queada.

A disclaimer: my exposure to the situation comes from the media, which is almost exclusively liberal and presents a biased view of events in Iraq and elsewhere. I'm not suggesting they are lying (although it wouldn't suprise me) but I am suggesting that their portrayal paints a grim picture, how far it is from the complete picture I don't know.

 

[Flatlander]

You are correct 100%. My only way of knowing is what I get out of the news as well, and that's all I have to go by. What I was alluding to was the change in purpose now. With this change in purpose, there are different expectations and goals, and different rules of engagement that must be adhered to.

 

[BlueDragon1981]

My point in my earlier post is that we are wasting money and the lives of our own people to fight something that is never going to change. They will never like us. We will rebuild everything and they will then use it against us. No matter what we do for the people they will not allow themselves to like westerners. I know this is my opinion but we would not be over there if Bush was not elected. I know that statement will ruffle some feathers but I think we would be actually concentrating on who did it.

 

[Athena]

Isn't that what all of the hoopla is about? We are to give Saddam to the people or interm government for all of his crimes? :idunno: If this happens and he walks we are all doomed. :asian: On another note they should have shot him in the skull in his spider hole. There were only a few people over there hunting for him and they could have said he put up a fight or something.

actually i'm almost positive that there were 500 people ready just in case he did have some magical resistance worked out. my family and i actually got into an argument over whether or not the excess number of troops is indicative of faulty intelligence. i think that this is what irritates me the most about this war: all the misconceptions. Bush is purposely fostering the belief that al-Qaeda is connected to the former Iraqi regime, which is absolutely not true and he knows it. if there is in fact a draft, i will be so furious because of all the lying.

 

[Athena]

Hardly. The terrorists are most all militant fundamentalist muslims. They don't want anarchy. Exactly the opposite actually. They hate us and the rest of the west due to our freedoms. Anarchy is TOTAL freedom. Now I can't say what they truely want, since I'm certainly not one, but I can guess that the last thing they want is to promote MORE freedom...

they don't hate our freedom, they hate what we do with it. it's completely different, so stop parroting the president. maybe if we actually looked at the real motivation, we'd be better prepared to deal with the situation.

 

[michaeledward]

A disclaimer: my exposure to the situation comes from the media, which is almost exclusively liberal and presents a biased view of events in Iraq and elsewhere. I'm not suggesting they are lying (although it wouldn't suprise me) but I am suggesting that their portrayal paints a grim picture, how far it is from the complete picture I don't know.

To state and believe the media is "almost exlusively liberal" is to not understand what liberal means, what media means, what exlusive means.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/search-handle-form/103-5174291-6817436

As far as the course of action you present, it is foolhardy in the extreme. To destroy innocent iraqi's homes and livelyhoods while sparing their lives while seeking to destroy one man, will breed discontent that will give rise to vengful acts for generations. Additionally, it would make that one man a martyr; 2000 years from now, religions based on that one man's point of view could dominate the world.


Thanks for listening. - Mike

 

[michaeledward]

they don't hate our freedom, they hate what we do with it. it's completely different, so stop parroting the president. maybe if we actually looked at the real motivation, we'd be better prepared to deal with the situation.

I'm not sure they even hate what we do with our freedom. "They" (whoever that may be) are certainly upset that the United States has a military presence on the Arabian penninsula. "They" are certainly upset that the Palestinians can't seem to catch a break - visa-vi the US Support for Israel in defiance of UN resolutions. "They" are certainly upset that once we destroyed the Iraqi governing structures, we didn't just go home.

Certainly, what the president says is as predictable as if he had a string coming out of his back ... and we shouldn't be parrotting that. (It's an embarrassment to Jimmy Buffet

Mike