Zimmerman to face Wrongful Death Civil Trial

[Big Don]

I'd be less suspicious of GM's behavior if he hadn't felt the need to arm himself for whatever he planned on doing--or if he armed himself but stayed in the car. People who grab a weapon and then go looking around the neighborhood for troublemakers worry me--unless it's their job to do so.

He had a permit to carry a concealed weapon. Why do you hate civil rights? Why can't an American of Peruvian descent carry a weapon? Why are you biased against his ethnicity?

 

[Big Don]

If you own property and have a family in a neighborhood where criminals are prowling, it IS your job to help protect you and your neighbors. Most likely, the police won't show up in time and they won't solve the crime if it is committed.

Wouldn't it have been faster to say:
When you need help in seconds the police are minutes away?

 

[Steve]

I wasn't comparing anyone to that statement. I was comparing that statement to all the rest of the fake BS race card crap that has NOTHING to do with this case or what happened but it sure gets a lot of play huh?

To make the excuse that Martin gets a pass from just going home because he's black and has been followed before is about as dumb as what was said to me. Esp when the facts of Martins past show a good reason to follow him.

Ballen, step back for a minute. Arnisador hasn't once suggested that TM "get a pass" for any reason. And that's beside the absurdly inappropriate suggestion that a person who was killed could get a pass. While it is a fact that Zimmerman was acquitted of 2nd degree murder, it is also a fact that Trayvon Martin was not charged with any crimes, despite the best efforts of some here (not just you) to paint him as a criminal and entirely at fault for his own death. That is also a fact, not my opinion.

 

[Steve]

If you own property and have a family in a neighborhood where criminals are prowling, it IS your job to help protect you and your neighbors. Most likely, the police won't show up in time and they won't solve the crime if it is committed.

This is a great point, and while I think Zimmerman made mistakes, taking an interest in protecting his property and that of his neighbor's was commendable.

 

[arnisador]

How about people that just carry a gun because it's his legal right to do so. I carry a gun everyday and am never out looking for anything.

I wish he'd followed your example.

 

[arnisador]

I have no bias

Well, I think this is part of the problem here--some of us believe there may be more than one way to view a complex event like this, and others don't.

 

[arnisador]

To make the excuse that Martin gets a pass from just going home because he's black and has been followed before is about as dumb

I don't think you really understand what it's like from the mindet of a person of color, with vastly different experiences. This is what diversity training is for (not that it works very well).

 

[Tgace]

it is also a fact that Trayvon Martin was not charged with any crimes, despite the best efforts of some here (not just you) to paint him as a criminal and entirely at fault for his own death. That is also a fact, not my opinion.

If..and I posit that it's an IF, TM did indeed take a 4 minute flanking maneuver on Zimmerman and then assault Zimmerman and beat Zimmerman to the point where he feared for his life than I would say that TM was ENTIRELY at fault. If those were the facts and if TM had survived I posit he should have been charged with a crime.

The "he stalked him" and "TM was defending himself" memes are a load of **** if those are indeed the facts in this case.

 

[arnisador]

Yes, it is, if you ignore the actual definition, or are suffering from chronic rectal cranial inversion.

Ah, polite as always.

Definition of VIGILANTE

: a member of a volunteer committee organized to suppress and punish crime summarily

Well, he was part of a watch apparently, meant to suppress, and ended up punishing. Where do we disagree?

 

[arnisador]

He had a permit to carry a concealed weapon. Why do you hate civil rights? Why can't an American of Peruvian descent carry a weapon? Why are you biased against his ethnicity?

Well, let me just bite this bait. Oh wait! Let me think on it...

 

[arnisador]

If..and I posit that it's an IF, TM did indeed take a 4 minute flanking maneuver on Zimmerman and then assault Zimmerman and beat Zimmerman to the point where he feared for his life than I would say that TM was ENTIRELY at fault. If those were the facts and if TM had survived I posit he should have been charged with a crime.

The "he stalked him" and "TM was defending himself" memes are a load of **** if those are indeed the facts in this case.

I mostly agree with you, but if he feared for his life--we never heard his story but we know from the phone conversations he was worried--then he may have felt the best defense was a good offense. I'd still mostly agree with you but it is a mitigating factor.

 

[Makalakumu]

With the same kind of speculative thinking I've seen in this thread, it could easily be said that TM would still be alive if GZ was allowed to Open Carry. The initial asault probably would never have happened.

 

[Tgace]

The statement that Zimmerman was "armed and on patrol" is a load of....opinion.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Trayvon_Martin#Background_of_the_shooting

Zimmerman said he was driving to the grocery store when he spotted Trayvon Martin walking through the neighborhood. Zimmerman's father said that, while his son was not on duty that night as Neighborhood Watch captain, there had been many break-ins and he thought it suspicious that someone he didn't recognize was walking behind the town homes instead of on the street or the sidewalk. Zimmerman therefore called a non-emergency police line to report Martin's behavior and summon police.[167][168] During the call, Zimmerman told the dispatcher that Martin was "coming to check me out."[73] A source to the Orlando Sentinel said in May that Zimmerman told investigators that at one point Martin circled his vehicle,[Note 7] and he rolled up his window to avoid a confrontation.[164][169]

 

[Steve]

If..and I posit that it's an IF, TM did indeed take a 4 minute flanking maneuver on Zimmerman and then assault Zimmerman and beat Zimmerman to the point where he feared for his life than I would say that TM was ENTIRELY at fault. If those were the facts and if TM had survived I posit he should have been charged with a crime.

The "he stalked him" and "TM was defending himself" memes are a load of **** if those are indeed the facts in this case.

That's true, Tgace. Personally, based on what I've seen, I don't think that happened. As I said, we've heard one side of the story, and obviously, it's the side of the story that is most advantageous to Zimmerman's defense.

But that's conjecture and opinion. The fact is that we're not talking at all about criminals. Neither of them. That is fact.

 

[ballen0351]

I wish he'd followed your example.

He did. I dont understand your attitude towrd a guy that cares about his home and wans to make sure its safe. He didnt go out looking for a fight. Bad things happen sometime its just a fact of life

 

[Steve]

He did. I dont understand your attitude towrd a guy that cares about his home and wans to make sure its safe. He didnt go out looking for a fight. Bad things happen sometime its just a fact of life

So, there's nothing z could have done to bring about a better solution? I don't for a second believe that z wanted to hurt or kill anyone.


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[ballen0351]

So, there's nothing z could have done to bring about a better solution? I don't for a second believe that z wanted to hurt or kill anyone.


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Other then fight better or take a butt kicking Im dont believe so. I believe it when like this:

Zimmerman goes out for a check of his neighborhood. Its dark and raining and he sees someone suspicious walking thru an area thats had some thefts. He calls the police and starts following the person to get a better location for the police. At some point he looses sight of the suspect and starts walking back to his truck. Martin walking to his house sees someone following him and is talking to his girlfriend. Being a young boy full of hormones and not to bright like mose young men he starts talking tough to his Girlfriend to show her how much of a bad *** he is. He looses Zimmerman and doubles back to confront him with his girlfriend on the phone. He pushes Zimmerman to the ground and starts hitting him. Zimmerman freaks out and shoots Martin. I dont believe at any time did Zimmerman plan to kill anyone, I also dont think Martin planned to kill anyone. He just wanted to show off for his girl and smack Zimmerman around a little bit. Neither planned for anything bad to happen it just did.

 

[arnisador]

I dont understand your attitude towrd a guy that cares about his home and wans to make sure its safe. He didnt go out looking for a fight.

Well, here's where we really disagree, I suppose--I think he did go looking for a confrontation, and managed to find it. Much more than he wanted, yes, but still--I believe he wanted a confrontation.

 

[Steve]

Other then fight better or take a butt kicking Im dont believe so. I believe it when like this:

Zimmerman goes out for a check of his neighborhood. Its dark and raining and he sees someone suspicious walking thru an area thats had some thefts. He calls the police and starts following the person to get a better location for the police. At some point he looses sight of the suspect and starts walking back to his truck. Martin walking to his house sees someone following him and is talking to his girlfriend. Being a young boy full of hormones and not to bright like mose young men he starts talking tough to his Girlfriend to show her how much of a bad *** he is. He looses Zimmerman and doubles back to confront him with his girlfriend on the phone. He pushes Zimmerman to the ground and starts hitting him. Zimmerman freaks out and shoots Martin. I dont believe at any time did Zimmerman plan to kill anyone, I also dont think Martin planned to kill anyone. He just wanted to show off for his girl and smack Zimmerman around a little bit. Neither planned for anything bad to happen it just did.

You're making it sound like they're both just victims of circumstance. I'm not sure I agree. I think both of them could have done things differently.

One subtle thing here. Though I largely agree with your summary of the events, Martin wasn't necessarily suspicious. Zimmerman thought he was suspicious. It's a subtle, but I believe, important distinction. I've seen kids who are just kids, but my brother (who can be a putz), thinks any kid wearing baggy pants is a drug addict. He would characterize pretty much any teenager not dressed in a polo shirt and chinos as "suspicious." Only slightly exaggerating.

There's nothing to suggest that he was doing anything suspicious... until he was being followed. It's a value judgement, and while Zimmerman didn't appear to do anything illegal, his actions lead me to question his judgement. Point being that "suspicious" has more to do with zimmerman's perspective and judgment than with any actual "suspiciousness" on the part of Martin. It's very, very subjective.

 

[Tgace]

You're making it sound like they're both just victims of circumstance. I'm not sure I agree. I think both of them could have done things differently.

One subtle thing here. Though I largely agree with your summary of the events, Martin wasn't necessarily suspicious. Zimmerman thought he was suspicious. It's a subtle, but I believe, important distinction. I've seen kids who are just kids, but my brother (who can be a putz), thinks any kid wearing baggy pants is a drug addict. He would characterize pretty much any teenager not dressed in a polo shirt and chinos as "suspicious." Only slightly exaggerating.

There's nothing to suggest that he was doing anything suspicious... until he was being followed. It's a value judgement, and while Zimmerman didn't appear to do anything illegal, his actions lead me to question his judgement. Point being that "suspicious" has more to do with zimmerman's perspective and judgment than with any actual "suspiciousness" on the part of Martin. It's very, very subjective.

What do you base that assumption on? I heard Martin was cutting through backyards to "avoid the rain". A stranger in my backyard would trigger some suspicion in me....

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