Zimmerman to face Wrongful Death Civil Trial

[Master Dan]

What the heck is going on here? Do you guys think Zimmerman is a hapless victim? I'm genuinely shocked if that's the case. If you guys believe that Zimmerman is a poor, blameless victim, I think I can begin to understand some of the miscommunication going on in this thread.

You have hit the nail on the head it is all about race and hate and if we put it down by % on this site I find the majority involved or at least who take the time to comment related to anything race related not just unsympathetic to the plight of minorities but out right hostile and self righteous unwilling to look in the mirror and see them selves for what they are. Where are the black people on this site? If Zimmerman was truly guiltless or had done the right thing for the community he would have nothing to fear. Our country is polarized now just as bad as Germany in 1935 with a combination of those threatened by the possibility of loosing financial and political control and those so desperate to improve their financial plight they are willing to vote against their own self interest because they are being told by media and politically corrupt politicians all their problems or the imagined threat is THOSE PEOPLE OR THAT GROUP!!

People fought and died to change that but it looks like we are going to have to do it all over again. There is a whole group of people that think the wrong side won the Civil War.

I have respect for outright haters, bigots and racist who are at lest honest enough to admit what they are but I hate the hypocrites and cowards that want to hide behind protecting my gun rights or imaginary threats that do not exist.

Bottom line to the verdict is that all black teens wearing a hoody are considered suspicious and dangerous until proven otherwise. Except for a few Token Blacks paid for by the right the majority of black people in America agree.

 

[Master Dan]

Not legally Zimmerman was well within the law on what he did. I wish more people would stand up and take some pride in their own neighborhood.

Oh there you go take pride in your neighborhood kill a kid just going to buy snacks. and also its not provoking to observe someone and call the police its provoking to follow them and confront them especially after being told stay in your vehicle. If Martin was a thug he would have been pack in and dropped George where he stood.

 

[ballen0351]

Oh there you go take pride in your neighborhood kill a kid just going to buy snacks. and also its not provoking to observe someone and call the police its provoking to follow them and confront them especially after being told stay in your vehicle. If Martin was a thug he would have been pack in and dropped George where he stood.

Did you even watch the trial or are you just trolling?

 

[ballen0351]

You have hit the nail on the head it is all about race and hate and if we put it down by % on this site I find the majority involved or at least who take the time to comment related to anything race related not just unsympathetic to the plight of minorities but out right hostile and self righteous unwilling to look in the mirror and see them selves for what they are. Where are the black people on this site? If Zimmerman was truly guiltless or had done the right thing for the community he would have nothing to fear. Our country is polarized now just as bad as Germany in 1935 with a combination of those threatened by the possibility of loosing financial and political control and those so desperate to improve their financial plight they are willing to vote against their own self interest because they are being told by media and politically corrupt politicians all their problems or the imagined threat is THOSE PEOPLE OR THAT GROUP!!

People fought and died to change that but it looks like we are going to have to do it all over again. There is a whole group of people that think the wrong side won the Civil War.

I have respect for outright haters, bigots and racist who are at lest honest enough to admit what they are but I hate the hypocrites and cowards that want to hide behind protecting my gun rights or imaginary threats that do not exist.

Bottom line to the verdict is that all black teens wearing a hoody are considered suspicious and dangerous until proven otherwise. Except for a few Token Blacks paid for by the right the majority of black people in America agree.

Where is your outrage over the black on black murders? A black teen that is murdered has a 93% chance they were killed by another young black male. Wheres your outrage? Where is your marches and protest? Where are the leaders calling for an end to the violence? So the only Bigot I see here is YOU

 

[punisher73]

Oh there you go take pride in your neighborhood kill a kid just going to buy snacks. and also its not provoking to observe someone and call the police its provoking to follow them and confront them especially after being told stay in your vehicle. If Martin was a thug he would have been pack in and dropped George where he stood.

Fact: Zimmerman told dispatchers initially there was a "strange guy" and there had been recent break-ins in the neighborhood. Dispatch actually asked the race and it wasn't until Martin turned towards him that he knew he was black and identified him as such
Fact: Martin called Zimmerman a "creepy *** cracker" on his phone call
Fact: Zimmerman was NEVER told to stay in his vehicle, when Martin ran he was asked if he was following and dispatch did say that they didn't need him to do that. After he was told that, Zimmerman does NOT run/follow after Martin and tells them "ok" and then continues to talk with dispatchers and tells them he will wait for the police.
Fact: Zimmerman NEVER confronted Martin. Martin got away and then came back around as Zimmerman attempted to leave

One of the other things that people have NOT seemed to notice is that Zimmerman in his call makes reference to Martin putting his hand into his waistband and doing something and later Zimmerman tells dispatchers that Martin has something in his hand, but he can't tell what it is. A person could reasonably assume that the other person may have a weapon of some kind on their person due to these actions and circumstances. Remember it is what is believed at the time of the incident and not facts known after the incident.

As to Martin being a "thug" and he would have been packing. That's crap. I know plenty of gangbangers through my work in LE and they don't ALL carry guns all the time. In fact, some of the younger independant gangs might only have 1 or 2 handguns that they pass around amongst themselves.

Also, Alveda King (Dr. Martin L. King Jr.'s neice) recently admonished the NAACP and other black leaders for "race baiting" in the Zimmerman case and said that it had nothing to do with race.
http://www.newsmax.com/Headline/alveda-king-naacp-zimmerman/2013/07/15/id/515158 . Looking at just the FACTS of the case, it was a case of whether or not Zimmerman had the right to use lethal force to protect himself with a particular set of circumstances. FACTS that we know from the 911 call. 1) Suspect acting strange like he was on drugs 2) Reaching into his waistband and having something in his hand. FACTS that we know from other testimony and physical evidence 1) Martin had Zimmerman on the ground and was slamming his head on the concrete 2) Zimmerman shot Martin at an upward angle at close range consistant with Martin being over the top of Zimmerman.

There was NO EVIDENCE AT ALL presented in the trial (or other investigations) that race had ANYTHING to do with this at all. In fact, the only racial comment came from Martin. So how about stopping with the personal attacks calling everyone closet racists because they feel that Zimmerman had the right to protect himself and use lethal force when he was in fear of his life. If you can post FACTUAL EVIDENCE or testimony from the trial that support racism instead of media opinions then lets hear it.

 

[MJS]

I seriously do not understand why you dig your heels on some things, ballen. I didn't say "legally." That's a condition you're adding, for what reason I can't understand.

Legally, Zimmerman was found not guilty of 2nd degree murder. Period. That's fact. But, does that mean he made no mistakes? You think you'd have handled the situation in exactly the same way Zimmerman did? That he was in no way culpable for the result?

Look at it this way. What would the win/win have been? I mean, ultimately, the goal was to ensure that Martin wasn't committing crimes, get the police involved and if Martin was a criminal, to bring him to justice. Right? But, months later, TM is dead and GZ has been through a legal ringer, with potentially more legal issues to deal with, and no matter what happens in court, his life has changed for the worse. He may never escape the polarizing infamy this court case has garnered him.

Wouldn't you agree that he made some mistakes?

To be honest, were I in GZ's shoes, well, it's hard to say, because each situation is different. I'm still curious as to what the full scope of what he could/could not do, as a neighborhood watchman, is. Are they allowed to pursue, either on foot or in vehicle, a susp. person, once they leave the area the NW person is patrolling? Are they allowed to physically interact with them? If so, yeah, I'd most likely have did what GZ did. One thing I would do though, is request the PD to send a marked car to the area I was in. Why? Because in the end, the bottom line is, a NW person is not a LEO. Of course, if someone was attacking me, sure, I'd do what I had to do to go home.

I do agree with ballen though. I mean, if more people actually got involved, and talked to the cops, rather than kept quiet, and did nothing, the world would probably be a better place.

 

[MJS]

Is the DOJ now thinking of putting people on trial for mistakes?

And why are they getting involved in the first place? Is there really an honest, legit reason for them to be....or is it more because of pressure? Hmm....I'll take Under Pressure for $2000 Alex.

 

[MJS]

And now Eric Holder wants to blame this on Fla stand your ground law and race....

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Of course....so he looks good in the eyes of the public. He's grasping at straws, IMO, and unless he plans on getting involved in every case out there, then he needs to stay the hell out of this one.

 

[MJS]

Where is your outrage over the black on black murders? A black teen that is murdered has a 93% chance they were killed by another young black male. Wheres your outrage? Where is your marches and protest? Where are the leaders calling for an end to the violence? So the only Bigot I see here is YOU

Agreed! I posted some links a while back on the very things you mention. The silence from "Master Dan" was deafening. LOL!

 

[Grenadier]

Oh there you go take pride in your neighborhood kill a kid just going to buy snacks.

That's not why he was killed.

Trayvon Martin was shot in a justified self-defense situation, because Trayvon Martin tried to kill George Zimmerman. It is NOT OK to start a fight by sucker punching someone in the nose, breaking his nose, knocking him down, raining blows down on him MMA-style, and then bashing his head against the concrete.

This has been pointed out to you numerous times, yet you continue to ignore the facts.

and also its not provoking to observe someone and call the police its provoking to follow them and confront them especially after being told stay in your vehicle. If Martin was a thug he would have been pack in and dropped George where he stood.

It's not against the law to observe people. Furthermore, George Zimmerman cooperated with the dispatcher (a 9-1-1 dispatcher is NOT the police) when he acknowledged the dispatcher who specifically stated "You don't have to do that." Zimmerman replied "OK."

Again, this was well-documented, and the facts are making your assertions look silly.

Finally, it would have been against the law for Trayvon Martin to own a firearm, since he was a disqualified individual, according to ATF 4473. Surely, you're not encouraging those individuals to break the laws further now?

http://www.atf.gov/files/forms/download/atf-f-4473-1.pdf

 

[Steve]

"Mistakes" aside Steve..who did something ILLEGAL?

In my opinion? I think z committed manslaughter but that wasn't the charge. However, that's beside the point, I think. He was found innocent if 2nd degree murder, and that's a fact.

Ask if that is beside the idea that Zimmerman was in no way culpable. As an adult. As a gun owner. He screwed up and will be paying for that the rest of his life.

So the questions I have now are about how it could have gone better. I pity z. I think he is a tragic character who made mistakes that have ruined his life.

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[Tgace]

This is Fla's Manslaughter statute:

(1) The killing of a human being by the act, procurement, or culpable negligence of another, without lawful justification according to the provisions of chapter 776 and in cases in which such killing shall not be excusable homicide or murder, according to the provisions of this chapter, is manslaughter, a felony of the second degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082, s. 775.083, or s. 775.084.

Section 776 is the Fla Self defence statute.

So. What would facts/evidence would you use to convict Zimmerman of this charge?

 

[Steve]

This is Fla's Manslaughter statute:



Section 776 is the Fla Self defence statute.

So. What would facts/evidence would you use to convict Zimmerman of this charge?

Tgace. I'm happy to have the conversation you're looking for, if you're also willing to have mine. You're pushing for an entirely different discussion, which is about whether Zimmerman is guilty. I'm really much more interested in what lessons could be learned.


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[arnisador]

Since when is following someone suspicious in your neighborhood and calling the police provoking?

Since always. Stalking people has always been problematic. When he called the police, the advice was to not follow him around.

 

[arnisador]

Not legally Zimmerman was well within the law on what he did. I wish more people would stand up and take some pride in their own neighborhood.

...no matter how many kids die as a result? Because that's what happened. He may well have been within Florida's overbroad laws on this but you can be within the law and still be a provocateur.

 

[arnisador]

Well, had GZ not shot an unarmed teen, but somebody slightly older with the tools of the trade in his pocket, would we still say the same things?

You get a bonus for being right and (should) get a penalty for being wrong. Which is one reason we don't shoot people when we're not sure if they're part of the problem or not.

A neighborhood watch is intended to do just that--watch and report to the police. It's not meant as a vigilante group.

 

[arnisador]

Martin got away and was only 1-2 houses away from where he was staying. He could have easily have gone to where he was staying and been safe or stayed hidden until the person following him left.

This makes more sense if it's the first time you've been followed by someone who looks like they want to get you in trouble. If it's happened to him before or he believed it would continue to happen to him, he may have thought that a confrontation to discuss the matter may have been his best bet. How it came to blows we'll never know for sure.

 

[granfire]

You get a bonus for being right and (should) get a penalty for being wrong. Which is one reason we don't shoot people when we're not sure if they're part of the problem or not.

A neighborhood watch is intended to do just that--watch and report to the police. It's not meant as a vigilante group.

well, I was going for all things being the same, being GZ being pinned by an older guys with burglary tools in the pocket.

We also do not go around jumping on people and pounding them into the pavement.

 

[arnisador]

We also do not go around jumping on people and pounding them into the pavement.

True. But we can't pretend that a white (Hispanic) adult following an African-American teenager has no greater context in this country. It's telling that so many African-Americans do think there's a racial angle--that they know what it's like to always be suspect. There was provocation. That doesn't mean that TM was in the right--if he swung first, he wasn't--or that GZ shouldn't have defended himself. It means GZ doesn't come in with "clean hands" in this matter.

 

[crushing]

A neighborhood watch is intended to do just that--watch and report to the police. It's not meant as a vigilante group.

My house had been egged a couple times. I heard the cracking noise of another egg hitting my siding. I ran outside looking for whomever was vandalizing my place. Fortunately, I didn't get jumped. I never considered what I did to be an act of vigilantism.