Zimmerman to face Wrongful Death Civil Trial

[Makalakumu]

Well, here's where we really disagree, I suppose--I think he did go looking for a confrontation, and managed to find it. Much more than he wanted, yes, but still--I believe he wanted a confrontation.

Strangers in your neighborhood should be confronted. This is how responsible people ascertain whether or not someone belongs in that neighborhood. All Martin had to do was turn on Zimmerman and say, "**** off man. I live with my dad two houses down." That would have been the end of it.

Instead, he assaulted Zimmerman. This decision cost him his life, sadly.

 

[ballen0351]

Well, here's where we really disagree, I suppose--I think he did go looking for a confrontation, and managed to find it. Much more than he wanted, yes, but still--I believe he wanted a confrontation.

Why? What makes you think he was looking for fight?

 

[ballen0351]

You're making it sound like they're both just victims of circumstance. I'm not sure I agree. I think both of them could have done things differently.

One subtle thing here. Though I largely agree with your summary of the events, Martin wasn't necessarily suspicious. Zimmerman thought he was suspicious. It's a subtle, but I believe, important distinction. I've seen kids who are just kids, but my brother (who can be a putz), thinks any kid wearing baggy pants is a drug addict. He would characterize pretty much any teenager not dressed in a polo shirt and chinos as "suspicious." Only slightly exaggerating.

There's nothing to suggest that he was doing anything suspicious... until he was being followed. It's a value judgement, and while Zimmerman didn't appear to do anything illegal, his actions lead me to question his judgement. Point being that "suspicious" has more to do with zimmerman's perspective and judgment than with any actual "suspiciousness" on the part of Martin. It's very, very subjective.

Walking around at night in the cold and rain is not "normal" behavior. Most people don't go for a walk in the rain on a cold night. While there is nothing wrong with it that is "suspicious" behavior. Since a lot of vehicle break ins happen at night in the rain since most people stay inside during weather like that. And the noise of the rain can mask sounds of car doors being opened. Rain is also a counter measure for things like finger prints. I personally would be suspicious if I saw a young teen walking around at night in the rain. We have a joke in winter at 4 am in the snow you see 2 or 3 guys standing on the corner that should be PC enough to search them since no normal person is standing out in the snow at 4am. Its kinda the same thing here.

 

[arnisador]

Why? What makes you think he was looking for fight?

It's as much the facts of the case--getting out of the car despite advice not to do so--as just my read of him and the whole situation.

 

[Steve]

Walking around at night in the cold and rain is not "normal" behavior. Most people don't go for a walk in the rain on a cold night. While there is nothing wrong with it that is "suspicious" behavior. Since a lot of vehicle break ins happen at night in the rain since most people stay inside during weather like that. And the noise of the rain can mask sounds of car doors being opened. Rain is also a counter measure for things like finger prints. I personally would be suspicious if I saw a young teen walking around at night in the rain. We have a joke in winter at 4 am in the snow you see 2 or 3 guys standing on the corner that should be PC enough to search them since no normal person is standing out in the snow at 4am. Its kinda the same thing here.

That's fair, but it wasn't 4am. I personally would be more suspicious of an adult than a teenager. Plenty of kids don't drive and we always have kids walking around because they have few other options. Adults normally drive.

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[ballen0351]

That's fair, but it wasn't 4am. I personally would be more suspicious of an adult than a teenager. Plenty of kids don't drive and we always have kids walking around because they have few other options. Adults normally drive.

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I'm not sure Zimmerman knew the age of Martin. He's not a small kid so he may very well in the dark from a distance have looked like an adult.

 

[Tgace]

That's fair, but it wasn't 4am. I personally would be more suspicious of an adult than a teenager. Plenty of kids don't drive and we always have kids walking around because they have few other options. Adults normally drive.

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Most property crimes like car break-ins, vandalism and graffiti are done by teens at night in my town.

 

[arnisador]

Most property crimes like car break-ins, vandalism and graffiti are done by teens at night in my town.

Older meth users here.

 

[ballen0351]

I guess the difference between us (Steve, Arni and I) here is from our own world views. I deal with punk *** kids all day long. Teen boys cause 50% of the calls I deal with. Ive been punched, kicked, spit on, by 15 year old kids because they know there is nothing that can happen to them. So I tend to see kids with Matrins past , drugs, assaults on a bus driver, fights, as a little punk. I dont think he deserved to die and quite frankly at 15 years old I too was a Punk. I dont for one second believe Martin was afraid of Zimmerman, he didnt attack him out of built up anger about being followed because hes a black kid, it was because he is a dumb kid trying to show off for his Girl and an attitude that nothing can happen to me. I see it EVERYDAY. You talk to these kids and they laugh in your face, cuss you out, and when you let them go they flip you off as they walk away. Steve said I was cynical I guess I am.
I mention before one of the big problems now we have is these packs of teens going to our down town waterfront dining areas and just walking up to tables and grabbing peolples foods and eating it or throwing drinks on people or stealing cell phones off tables. We had a case two nights ago of a woman sitting at a red light talkig on her phone with her windows down pack of teen boys walked up several stand in front of her car and two of them walk up and just punch her in the face and then they run off. No reason just because. These kids are bold and have no fear of authority.
I then look at Zimmerman as a guy trying to do the right thing for his community. Is he a squirrel or wanna be cop? Maybe but so what whats wrong with that. Did he go out looking for a fight? No I dont believe he did. I believe he has done this same thing hundreds of times before and nothing bad ever happened. I think he was complacent let his guard down and it was the perfect combination of a kid trying to man up for his girl and a guy pissed off the cops didn't get there in time and he lost the kid so he was walking back to his truck not paying attention to his surroundings and Boom bad stuff happened.
I dont believe for one second Zimmerman is happy about this or was looking for this, At the end of the day he took the life of a teen age boy. Having killed someone myself I know what he must be going thru that in and of itself is tough but for the media and the President and the world to then condemn him with no facts I cant imagine. Here is a guy trying to do a good deed and then to see the news edit his own 911 call to make him look like a racist, to then have it come out the DOJ was setting up protests, to not be able to defend yourself in the public eye and even if you try to be called a racist.
This whole cases just pisses me off from start to finish. We had a legal system that was railroaded by politicians to force a murder charge, you had Race thrown around on a case that had nothing to do with race, you had "creative editing" of 911 tapes to stir up issues that didnt need to be stirred. We have the President of the United states one of the most powerful men in the world getting involved in a local state lvl criminal matter yet he ignores the war zone that starts 1000 yards from the front door of the Whitehouse. Why hasnt he once addressed the problem of black on black crime. If he is so concerned out our young black youth hes is the one man that could do some good and reach some of these guys. I go into houses that literally have shrines built to Obama, I go thru neighborhoods and can see on any given day 2 to 4 people wearing Obama t-shirts. I dont like Obama one bit but damn man what a waist of an opportunity to make a positive change in our country and hes blowing it.
That kid in PA that saved the kidnapped girl why isnt he being honored at the Whitehouse? But we are supposed to Honor Martins memory a kid that no matter what you believe you must admit played at least a small part in what happened that night.

 

[Carol]

If delineating between teens and adults was easy, no one would ever be carded for liquor.

 

[Steve]

Most property crimes like car break-ins, vandalism and graffiti are done by teens at night in my town.

I don't doubt it. But not in my neighborhood. Where you live does not necessarily equal where Zimmerman lived or where I live. Once again, in my neighborhood, we have kids walking around all the time and in Seattle, if kids don't walk in the dark, in the rain, they can't go out after 5pm from November to May.

I would find it more odd to see an adult walking. As I said, most adults don't walk out of necessity, but the kids often do.

 

[Steve]

If delineating between teens and adults was easy, no one would ever be carded for liquor.

Carol, you're absolutely right. A hoody is a pretty good clue to me, though that may be regional. I don't know.

 

[Tgace]

I don't doubt it. But not in my neighborhood. Where you live does not necessarily equal where Zimmerman lived or where I live. Once again, in my neighborhood, we have kids walking around all the time and in Seattle, if kids don't walk in the dark, in the rain, they can't go out after 5pm from November to May.

I would find it more odd to see an adult walking. As I said, most adults don't walk out of necessity, but the kids often do.

Id like to hear from a cop in your area...to be blunt you probably have no clue about who is doing what in your jurisdiction.

 

[Tgace]

Most people in my neighborhood may think the same as you Steve...but they don't have access to police reports.....

 

[Steve]

I guess the difference between us (Steve, Arni and I) here is from our own world views. I deal with punk *** kids all day long.

Thanks, ballen, and I agree that we have different perspectives. Arnisador and I disagree on many issues, but on this one, I understand where he's coming from.

There was a thread a while back talking about how dangerous a kick to the head is, and how it can crush a person's skull instantly. The person posting was an ER nurse (IIRC) and he used his anecdotal experience as evidence of how overwhelmingly deadly a kick to the head could be. But, when I found statistics, and pointed out that many, many people are struck in the head every day, all the time. They get bumps. They often rub some dirt in it (or whatever) and then take a few aspirin and forget about it. While a kick to the head CAN kill someone, it's actually quite unlikely. It's possible, but certainly not the rule. But as an ER nurse, this person came to have a skewed perspective. All he saw were the worst case scenario, and he saw them in a concentrated manner.

In the same way, I think cops run the risk of seeing mostly the worst, and frankly, I think you run a real risk of having a skewed outlook on some things. Kids, for example. Chances are, if you are dealing with kids, you're dealing with the worst of them. But I can guarantee you that there are plenty of kids who are just doing what they can to get through high school, and while they are surely being short sighted and making plenty of mistakes, most will turn out just fine.

Regarding the Obama stuff, I don't have any real comment to that other than that he's a black president in a polarized political climate. Anything he does is bound to piss some people off and let other people down. The two things you mention are completely unrelated to 99.9% of the country, but to you there's some kind of relationship.

 

[Tgace]

Thanks, ballen, and I agree that we have different perspectives. Arnisador and I disagree on many issues, but on this one, I understand where he's coming from.

There was a thread a while back talking about how dangerous a kick to the head is, and how it can crush a person's skull instantly. The person posting was an ER nurse (IIRC) and he used his anecdotal experience as evidence of how overwhelmingly deadly a kick to the head could be. But, when I found statistics, and pointed out that many, many people are struck in the head every day, all the time. They get bumps. They often rub some dirt in it (or whatever) and then take a few aspirin and forget about it. While a kick to the head CAN kill someone, it's actually quite unlikely. It's possible, but certainly not the rule. But as an ER nurse, this person came to have a skewed perspective. All he saw were the worst case scenario, and he saw them in a concentrated manner.

In the same way, I think cops run the risk of seeing mostly the worst, and frankly, I think you run a real risk of having a skewed outlook on some things. Kids, for example. Chances are, if you are dealing with kids, you're dealing with the worst of them. But I can guarantee you that there are plenty of kids who are just doing what they can to get through high school, and while they are surely being short sighted and making plenty of mistakes, most will turn out just fine.

Regarding the Obama stuff, I don't have any real comment to that other than that he's a black president in a polarized political climate. Anything he does is bound to piss some people off and let other people down. The two things you mention are completely unrelated to 99.9% of the country, but to you there's some kind of relationship.

I don't buy that overused cliche Steve....the "you only see the bad" bit. It's based on not knowing what we do day in and day out.

The counter argument is that many people who DONT see what we see walk around with rose colored glasses on. I became a cop in my 30's with some life experience already under my belt....until you start answering police calls in your neighborhood and start interacting with FAR more people in your community than the average person does you really have no idea what is going on 2 streets over from your home.

Neither of us are saying that the majority of teens are punks...but we can identify "types" much quicker because we deal with them. I have sat with people and asked them "is this a close guess at your life?" then described their childhood, their falling into trouble, their drug use, their LE experiences etc. and been damn near spot on.

The idea that we "only deal with the bad" is a platitude Steve. We deal with ALL sorts of people all day..every day...all week...24/7/365. "Dealing" with people when you are a cop isn't all about arrests, fights and car chases. I have meet and dealt with far more "good" folks than bad in my career.

 

[ballen0351]

Thanks, ballen, and I agree that we have different perspectives. Arnisador and I disagree on many issues, but on this one, I understand where he's coming from.

There was a thread a while back talking about how dangerous a kick to the head is, and how it can crush a person's skull instantly. The person posting was an ER nurse (IIRC) and he used his anecdotal experience as evidence of how overwhelmingly deadly a kick to the head could be. But, when I found statistics, and pointed out that many, many people are struck in the head every day, all the time. They get bumps. They often rub some dirt in it (or whatever) and then take a few aspirin and forget about it. While a kick to the head CAN kill someone, it's actually quite unlikely. It's possible, but certainly not the rule. But as an ER nurse, this person came to have a skewed perspective. All he saw were the worst case scenario, and he saw them in a concentrated manner.

In the same way, I think cops run the risk of seeing mostly the worst, and frankly, I think you run a real risk of having a skewed outlook on some things. Kids, for example. Chances are, if you are dealing with kids, you're dealing with the worst of them. But I can guarantee you that there are plenty of kids who are just doing what they can to get through high school, and while they are surely being short sighted and making plenty of mistakes, most will turn out just fine.

I know there are lots of good kids out there dont get me wrong I dont think every kid is bad. I think most kids are just kids some better then others. Had I not known all the evidence presented in this case and met Martin on the streets I wouldn't think one way or another about him. I just also can see the story unfolding just as I presented it where others tend to give the kid the benefit of the doubt. I tend to now do a better job of NOT judging at first because ive been wrong too many times

Regarding the Obama stuff, I don't have any real comment to that other than that he's a black president in a polarized political climate. Anything he does is bound to piss some people off and let other people down. The two things you mention are completely unrelated to 99.9% of the country, but to you there's some kind of relationship.

I dont disagree with you and normally I wouldnt want the president involved in loacl issues but the problem I have is he already is involving himself in these matters but in my opinion hes doing a poor job and keeps coming out on the wrong side if the issues. Going back to the Cambridge professor and he condemning the police to now. I think he really could reach people esp young black men and I just dont think he is doing a good job here

 

[arnisador]

I work with teenagers and young adults for a living--typically 17-22 years old. The ones I see are outstanding young people. I do think it colors one's viewpoint to see disproportionately many good or bad examples.

We're about to host a high school student from Tunisia in our home for the year--a U.S. Dept. of State sponsored scholarship winner (meaning an exceptional student). Fully vetted by the U.S. govt. You can imagine we have some concerns about how a Muslim might be perceived in our little town.

As to identifying types, I do believe that LEOs become very good at that and have a lot of respect for their "spider-sense". But how about GZ? If you're in a neighborhood watch then by defn. you're looking for trouble-makers. Is it a surprise he sees one?

 

[Steve]

Id like to hear from a cop in your area...to be blunt you probably have no clue about who is doing what in your jurisdiction.

Maybe so, Tgace, but the conversation isn't about actual crime in my neighborhood. It's about what is "suspicious." You're LEO and you look at everything through that lens. Most people are not LEO and view things differently, whether that's naive or not.

 

[Steve]

I don't buy that overused cliche Steve....the "you only see the bad" bit. It's based on not knowing what we do day in and day out.

The counter argument is that many people who DONT see what we see walk around with rose colored glasses on. I became a cop in my 30's with some life experience already under my belt....until you start answering police calls in your neighborhood and start interacting with FAR more people in your community than the average person does you really have no idea what is going on 2 streets over from your home.

Neither of us are saying that the majority of teens are punks...but we can identify "types" much quicker because we deal with them. I have sat with people and asked them "is this a close guess at your life?" then described their childhood, their falling into trouble, their drug use, their LE experiences etc. and been damn near spot on.

The idea that we "only deal with the bad" is a platitude Steve. We deal with ALL sorts of people all day..every day...all week...24/7/365. "Dealing" with people when you are a cop isn't all about arrests, fights and car chases. I have meet and dealt with far more "good" folks than bad in my career.

Sorry if I offended you, Tgace. I have nothing but respect for what you and ballen do.
Edit: Here's the thing. I think this is one of those situations where we're just going to have to agree to disagree.