ballen0351
Sr. Grandmaster
So we should have the right to carry guns? That way when we are attacked its only a fist fight and we hope you dont die? How about Martin just keep walking and not attack Zimmerman that would = no death
Zimmerman to face Wrongful Death Civil Trial
- Thread starter Master Dan
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So we should have the right to carry guns? That way when we are attacked its only a fist fight and we hope you dont die? How about Martin just keep walking and not attack Zimmerman that would = no death
Steve
Mostly Harmless
Jesus christ, guys. There were mistakes made on both sides. Zimmerman handled it poorly, and so did Martin. If anything, I would tend to give Martin a bit more leeway because of his youth and general lack of life experience. While we don't know who threw the first punch, so to speak, it's pretty clear that the situation escalated as a result of a series of poor choices by them both.
ballen0351
Sr. Grandmaster
Since when is following someone suspicious in your neighborhood and calling the police provoking?
ballen0351
Sr. Grandmaster
Not legally Zimmerman was well within the law on what he did. I wish more people would stand up and take some pride in their own neighborhood.
Steve
Mostly Harmless
I seriously do not understand why you dig your heels on some things, ballen. I didn't say "legally." That's a condition you're adding, for what reason I can't understand.
Legally, Zimmerman was found not guilty of 2nd degree murder. Period. That's fact. But, does that mean he made no mistakes? You think you'd have handled the situation in exactly the same way Zimmerman did? That he was in no way culpable for the result?
Look at it this way. What would the win/win have been? I mean, ultimately, the goal was to ensure that Martin wasn't committing crimes, get the police involved and if Martin was a criminal, to bring him to justice. Right? But, months later, TM is dead and GZ has been through a legal ringer, with potentially more legal issues to deal with, and no matter what happens in court, his life has changed for the worse. He may never escape the polarizing infamy this court case has garnered him.
Wouldn't you agree that he made some mistakes?
granfire
Sr. Grandmaster
Well, had GZ not shot an unarmed teen, but somebody slightly older with the tools of the trade in his pocket, would we still say the same things?
Yes, he could have stayed in his truck, gone home and wait to hear the news the next morning....
apartment x got broke into,
resident Y assaulted....a crack kitchen was set up in the next building over.
Did he make a mistake?
From what I can tell, his biggest mistake of that night was not being born black.
Evil thrives when good people stand by and do nothing.
The only way you can't make mistakes is by doing nothing.
Steve
Mostly Harmless
What the heck is going on here? Do you guys think Zimmerman is a hapless victim? I'm genuinely shocked if that's the case. If you guys believe that Zimmerman is a poor, blameless victim, I think I can begin to understand some of the miscommunication going on in this thread.
ballen0351
Sr. Grandmaster
No I wouldn't agree. When Martin physically attacked Zimmerman all bets are off. Zimmerman can follow anyone he wants for any reason he wants.
ballen0351
Sr. Grandmaster
So what did Zimmerman do wrong besides giving a crap about his neighbors and worrying about his community?
Steve
Mostly Harmless
You don't know that Martin attacked Zimmerman. We have one side of the story, and you're choosing to believe it.
He followed a guy in the dark, in the rain, and ended up in a fist fight that eventually led to one person's death, and his own life being screwed up for years, and possibly forever. Are you saying that there's no way there could have been a better outcome? Once again, what were the goals here? What was the endgame for Z? I don't believe for a second that he wanted to kill anyone, and I don't believe M wanted to be killed. So, somewhere along the way wouldn't you agree that some mistakes were made? Or do you think this was unavoidable, or that M brought the entire situation on himself?
Look, I want to be clear. I'm really, really struggling to understand your perspectives here. Your position, if I get it at all, is completely foreign to me. This idea that Z is completely blameless, a hapless victim of circumstances out of his control. I just don't get it.
I keep thinking of the SNL skit where the kids are trapped in a bear cave. They keep provoking the bears and then acting surprised when the bear eats one of them. The point is that behaviors have consequences. I believe that both Zimmerman AND Martin had influence over what happened. They both made mistakes and their errors in judgement ended really bad for them both. It didn't work out for either of them.
granfire
Sr. Grandmaster
hapless victim?
no.
just one of two guys who made mistakes.
And he did what each and every one of us would do in a similar situation: Do what it takes to go home to the family.
People who do make mistakes. It is easy to pass judgment after the fact.
The point is, that the other party was also no hapless victim, but another player in the game.
and in the end - and please, note the examples from homicides that happened at the same time - the only thing that was CZ grave mistake was being not black.
http://collegefootballtalk.nbcsport...ol-wounded-two-ex-players-killed-in-shooting/
It was rather astonishing to hear and read the excuses that were made for the shooter, leaving to return with a loaded gun and ill intentions, taking three lives, with no claim of self defense.
I find the Zimmermann case fascinating though.
As long as we discuss the merits of fighting (and 'street' is such a popular selling point in MA) in a vacuum, we are all tough talk.
We are all about the 2nd amendment, but heaven forbid, a fellow legally carries a gun and is forced to use it.
Not that I gave three figs about the trial past what I could not avoid come across....but it seems that GZ had disengaged.
If that was indeed the case, then yes, he would qualify as victim. Not hapless tho.
would have could have should have....
he follows a long line of people madder than hell, unwilling to take it anymore.
Instead of standing in front of a TV camera, demanding police to fix his neighborhood, he became proactive.
Win, lose or draw.
Did he make mistakes? Sure. Because the guy in the hoody could have also very well packed a gun.
how would that have played out?
family man gunned down in his own neighborhood, nobody saw nothing....
Tgace
Grandmaster
One night..in the early morning hours...I heard a car door slam and people yelling/screaming. I was still up (working midnight's at the time) and as I frequently am, I was dressed in civvies and armed. I went outside and walked down the sidewalk to see what was up. A girl jumped back in the car and it tore off. I was already on the phone and I got the plate so I let the patrol doggies take it and I went home. Turns out it was just a BF/GF argument.
How quickly could that have turned into a "what the **** do you want!?!?"...."whats going on here??"..."mind your own business!!!"...boyfriend assaults me situation?
Was I a "creepy *** cracker" for going out to see what was happening? Do I get a pass because Im an LEO? Was it OK that I went out because I was an LEO?
This whole case is really ALL about who laid hands on who first, who used deadly physical force first and if Zimmerman reasonably believed his life was in danger when he shot. ALL the rest of these issues (who followed who, what 911 told him, etc.) are sideline topics that peoples political/social beliefs are being expressed through.
How quickly could that have turned into a "what the **** do you want!?!?"...."whats going on here??"..."mind your own business!!!"...boyfriend assaults me situation?
Was I a "creepy *** cracker" for going out to see what was happening? Do I get a pass because Im an LEO? Was it OK that I went out because I was an LEO?
This whole case is really ALL about who laid hands on who first, who used deadly physical force first and if Zimmerman reasonably believed his life was in danger when he shot. ALL the rest of these issues (who followed who, what 911 told him, etc.) are sideline topics that peoples political/social beliefs are being expressed through.
Big Don
Sr. Grandmaster
Is the DOJ now thinking of putting people on trial for mistakes?
punisher73
Senior Master
One of the things that is hard for "lay people" is that we hear ALL the dirt on both sides of the fence. Stuff that is NOT admissible in court and the jurors never hear.
Here are SOME of the things that we know and about Zimmerman and Martin that was known AT THE TIME this happened
1) Zimmerman was involved in a neighborhood watch and knew that there had been some break-ins in the neighborhood/surrounding area.
2) Zimmerman saw someone in the neighborhood that he didn't know/recognize looking like he was casing things
3) Zimmerman was told by dispatch that he "didn't need to follow" the suspect. (Note: he was NEVER told NOT to)
4) Zimmerman lost contact with the person and was returning to his truck
5) Martin was staying with people in the neighborhood
6) Martin after knowing he was being followed got away and hid
7) Martin after watching Zimmerman go back to his truck to leave, followed him and confronted him
Things that we know from the incident that prejudice us into believing one way or another.
1) Martin was suspended from school for assaulting an adult school person (bus driver) which is why he was not staying at home
2) Child pornography, drugs and weapons on Martin's phone
3) Martin was suspended from school also for drug possession
4) Martin was found in possession of buglary tools and possible stolen property while at school
5) Pictures of piles of jewelry on the phone
6) Allegations that Zimmerman used racial language while on the phone (later found to be not true, and actually it was Martain who did)
7) Saying that Zimmerman was "white" and later changed it to "white hispanic" to play up the race angle
8) Originally saying that Zimmerman tracked down Martin and had cornered him, when in fact the dispatch tape shows he never caught up to him and had actually lost Martin
Zimmerman had good intentions (we assume), and hindsight is always 20/20. Zimmerman could have listened to the Dispatch advise and not gotten out of the truck to try and locate Martin. But, again this is hindsight based on the outcome of the situation. Martin was returning from the store (that is all we know and thoughts of "casing" etc. are based on pure speculation) so we will also assume good intentions. Martin got away and was only 1-2 houses away from where he was staying. He could have easily have gone to where he was staying and been safe or stayed hidden until the person following him left. Instead, Martin CHOSE to have bad intentions and try and come up behind Zimmerman to confront him. Armchair quarterbacking we can say that mistakes were made on both sides, but only one side chose with bad intent, and unfortunately that choice seems to be a pattern of behavior with other later known facts.
Here are SOME of the things that we know and about Zimmerman and Martin that was known AT THE TIME this happened
1) Zimmerman was involved in a neighborhood watch and knew that there had been some break-ins in the neighborhood/surrounding area.
2) Zimmerman saw someone in the neighborhood that he didn't know/recognize looking like he was casing things
3) Zimmerman was told by dispatch that he "didn't need to follow" the suspect. (Note: he was NEVER told NOT to)
4) Zimmerman lost contact with the person and was returning to his truck
5) Martin was staying with people in the neighborhood
6) Martin after knowing he was being followed got away and hid
7) Martin after watching Zimmerman go back to his truck to leave, followed him and confronted him
Things that we know from the incident that prejudice us into believing one way or another.
1) Martin was suspended from school for assaulting an adult school person (bus driver) which is why he was not staying at home
2) Child pornography, drugs and weapons on Martin's phone
3) Martin was suspended from school also for drug possession
4) Martin was found in possession of buglary tools and possible stolen property while at school
5) Pictures of piles of jewelry on the phone
6) Allegations that Zimmerman used racial language while on the phone (later found to be not true, and actually it was Martain who did)
7) Saying that Zimmerman was "white" and later changed it to "white hispanic" to play up the race angle
8) Originally saying that Zimmerman tracked down Martin and had cornered him, when in fact the dispatch tape shows he never caught up to him and had actually lost Martin
Zimmerman had good intentions (we assume), and hindsight is always 20/20. Zimmerman could have listened to the Dispatch advise and not gotten out of the truck to try and locate Martin. But, again this is hindsight based on the outcome of the situation. Martin was returning from the store (that is all we know and thoughts of "casing" etc. are based on pure speculation) so we will also assume good intentions. Martin got away and was only 1-2 houses away from where he was staying. He could have easily have gone to where he was staying and been safe or stayed hidden until the person following him left. Instead, Martin CHOSE to have bad intentions and try and come up behind Zimmerman to confront him. Armchair quarterbacking we can say that mistakes were made on both sides, but only one side chose with bad intent, and unfortunately that choice seems to be a pattern of behavior with other later known facts.
Martin's knuckles were bruised. Zimmermans were not. Martin had no other injuries except the gunshot wound. Zimmerman had a broken nose, two black eyes, lacerations on the back of his head, and bruises/stains on his back. The physical evidence supports the theory that Martin attacked, overwhelmed Zimmerman, and escalated to deadly force. There is no reason why anyone should doubt Zimmerman's story. He is not racist, nor has he a past history of racism. People who think Zimmerman did something wrong have been completely suckered in by the race baiting lame stream media and all of their manipulative, emotive, language. It happens to everyone. IMO, the sooner we admit we got fooled, the sooner we can stop being victims to this kind of thing.
Oh and BTW, I totally got fooled. Before I went and looked up the actual events of this case, I just assumed that Zimmerman must have been at fault somehow. Admittedly, I didn't really understand what happened though. I only knew that it was a huge controversy and that race was somehow involved. Now, I think I know better.
Tgace
Grandmaster
And now Eric Holder wants to blame this on Fla stand your ground law and race....
Sent from my Kindle Fire using Tapatalk 2
This will probably sound tin foil hatty, but I think this fits the pattern of attacking gun rights and attacking any laws that somewhat give the individual some autonomy when it comes to using violence. The attitude among lefties seems to be that self defense is bad and that the only people who should be allowed to use violence are people in uniform...aka people in government.
This case, with all of it's media hype and outright manipulation, seems like another transparent attempt to demonize private individuals . The race card is especially phony when you consider the Florida black woman who was given 20 years for firing warning shots at a threat. Partisan lefties won't touch this case though because it involves a gun and an individual who dared protect herself without an official costume.
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