Youth Black Belts

[Gizmo]

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/member.php?u=17859
Having Brown belts teach is one sign of a McDojang.

Again, it depends on the school and how long does it take to get to Black Belt. I don't know about the U.S., but here in our neck of woods many instructors don't hold black belts, and what is more interesting - this is typical for hardcore styles like Kyokushinkai, Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu or Kickboxing. In TKD, the minimal requirement to pass the instructor course in Poland is red belt (2nd or 1st Gup) which is an equivalent to brown belt in different styles. The trick is, those wearing the belt sometimes have 10+ years of experience. The highest graded active Kickboxing instructor in Poland is 4th Dan and he was a world champion 20+ years ago.

As a sidenote, all Kickboxing instructors in my club are brown belts, including myself. I don't think that we qualify for McDojang title, however.

 

[Twin Fist]

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/member.php?u=17859
Having Brown belts teach is one sign of a McDojang..

10 YEAR OLD BB's ARE A SIGN OF A BELT FACTORY MCDOJO

you know, like the one YOU go to

Brown belts teaching is traditional, when i started in 1984, it was MONTHS before i was in a class taught by a Black Belt.

When i was a brown belt, i was teaching 20 hours a week.

When i was in Japan, all the beginner classes were taught by Brown Belts

Thats the deal, you have to LEARN TO TEACH to be a TRUE Black Belt

you do that as a Brown belt

 

[Twin Fist]

oh, and fix your signature, there is NO SUCH THING as a first dan poom

 

[TKD_Father]

Whats wrong with my signature now?

I struck out First Dan and replaced it with Poom. I thought that was correct.

Or you don't understand the part?

It's called UBB Code which is short for Ultimate Bulletin Board. It allows for formatting text where HTML might not be allowed.

You can use it here... Like {b}BOLD{/b} replace the { with [ and it shows up like this BOLD. There are some basic ones like italics, font colors. The [\strike] isn't used on this board, but it would be a word (or words) that had a line through the middle of them - striking them out.

10 YEAR OLD BB's ARE A SIGN OF A BELT FACTORY MCDOJO

you know, like the one YOU go to

Again with the personal attacks?

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

miguksaram I hope you won't take this the wrong way... But one of the things I checked out prior to choosing a school for my son was who the instructors would be.

Having Brown belts teach is one sign of a McDojang. Please don't get me wrong. I'm definitely NOT calling your school a McD! I had read a lot of information prior to choosing my son's school and "students teaching" was one of the red flags.

And all of the places that say this all say that ten year old black belts are a huge sign of a mcdojo too.

The big factor is not whether or not the students are teaching, but what the criteria is for them doing so. If it takes four years just to get to brown belt and the brown belt is teaching a basic class, that is certainly better than an eighteen month black belt trying to teach an advanced class, for example.

Keep in mind that a three years to brown belt student is the equivalent of second dan at a two year BB dojo. A four years to brown belt is the equivalent of a second dan who is half way to third dan at a two year BB dojo.

This all comes back to what I said earlier: rank only has substantive meaning within a school.

My son doesn't teach class. He is called upon to assist when the belts break into groups for forms or self-defense. This is after the instructor has gone through the material at least twice.

I would consider this part of teaching duties that are expected of a black belt level student (as outlined in my previous response to your teaching question).

In general, the longer a student is a blackbelt, the more responsibilities in those areas will be expected of them until eventually, the student will be teaching whole classes.

By the time a student has passed their first kyu and dan-bo if the school has one, they essentially "know" taekwondo. One can continue to practice for love of the art without ever becoming a yudanja.

The essential reasons for continuing to advance in rank are:

1. Responsibility (always some amount of teaching along the way, also necessary for administrative roles, such as school owners and organizational heads)
2. Competition requirements
3. Love of the art along with a willingness to Financially support the school and organization
4. Additional material to the organizational curriculum that is only available
to yudansha.
5. Blindly following the GM and testing for no other reason that because he or she told you to.
6. Status

All other reasons for continued advancement stem from one of these four basic reasons. Every school has a mix of all six of these motivations. None of them are inherently good or bad, and each school addresses them differently.

Generally, the only valid reasons for a child to be promoted to black belt are 2, 5, and 6.

Number 6 is usually to satisfy parental demands.

Number 5 is usually to collect the parent's money, using 6 as the bait (your little Suzy will by a black belt! Of course you want to have her test and pay the $____ hundred dollars testing fee).

Sometimes, number five is because the instructor has an exceptional student and they do not want to see the student quit, so the promotion is intended to encourage the student to continue. And this is really what the Poom ranks were designed for: to keep a kid who is interested from getting discouraged.

Daniel

 

[Twin Fist]

for one thing, your code shouldnt show up if you do it right

and second, it isnt an attack against you, it is however an attack on the crap factory that you send your son to

you came here, asking for advice, and then, when you didnt like the advice you got, started insulting people.

dont be THAT GUY

there are literally DECADES of experience here to gleen from, if not centuries, Hell, jsut between Terry, Daniel and me, thats over 75 years of training right there.

be smart and listen to it. or, keep pretending your son learned something.

3 years for a BB is crap

10 year old BB is crap

3 years for a 10 yr old to get to BB is a crap sandwich

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Brown belts teaching is traditional, when i started in 1984, it was MONTHS before i was in a class taught by a Black Belt.

When i was a brown belt, i was teaching 20 hours a week.

When i was in Japan, all the beginner classes were taught by Brown Belts

That is how it was when I first started and through the eighties. Brown belts are a very big deal at a true traditional school.

Daniel

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

there are literally DECADES of experience here to gleen from, if not centuries, Hell, jsut between Terry, Daniel and me, thats over 75 years of training right there.

And between the three of us, we probably have enough accumulated training injuries to make a strong case for cybernetics research.

Daniel

 

[Twin Fist]

And between the three of us, we probably have enough accumulated training injuries to make a strong case for cybernetics research.

Daniel

lord knows thats true

 

[TKD_Father]

This is tiring, thank goodness for the Ignore User ability. Twin Fist gets the first click.

No matter what anyone says, it's all opinion. It's entirely up to the school where each person practices to determine the belt requirements for advancement.

Agree, don't agree... there is no right answer, just what you think the requirement should be, or what it is at your school.

TKD is so bastardized in America (overseas as well, and even somewhat in Korea) that it's impossible to set any type of "standardization" any longer.

The school my son attends is run by a Grand Master who has over 50 years in TKD beginning in Korea, which is more time then many of you making comments have been alive. Just like any other school, he has his requirements for BB's which everyone must abide by for promotion.

 

[Gorilla]

for one thing, your code shouldnt show up if you do it right

and second, it isnt an attack against you, it is however an attack on the crap factory that you send your son to

you came here, asking for advice, and then, when you didnt like the advice you got, started insulting people.

dont be THAT GUY

there are literally DECADES of experience here to gleen from, if not centuries, Hell, jsut between Terry, Daniel and me, thats over 75 years of training right there.

be smart and listen to it. or, keep pretending your son learned something.

3 years for a BB is crap

10 year old BB is crap

3 years for a 10 yr old to get to BB is a crap sandwich

Twin Fist,

You seem to have some very strong opinions about this subject. I have posted on this thread my TKD affiliation. Are you from a traditional TKD school a Sport school? I am not questioning your credentials just trying to get some background so that I can understand where you are coming from (I am a Newbie to Martial Talk). We started at a traditional school and are currently on a sport team with some traditional leanings. We still do forms and self-defense but mostly focus on the sport side.

 

[jks9199]

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[miguksaram]

miguksaram I hope you won't take this the wrong way... But one of the things I checked out prior to choosing a school for my son was who the instructors would be.



Having Brown belts teach is one sign of a McDojang. Please don't get me wrong. I'm definitely NOT calling your school a McD! I had read a lot of information prior to choosing my son's school and "students teaching" was one of the red flags.

Why is it wrong for a brown belt to teach? If they have been it for a good amount of time, in our school's case you would most likely been in it for about 4-5 years, why couldn't they teach? Again, I'm not saying they are running the place. They are just instructing a class and there is still a black belt on the floor to supervise.

BTW - It takes alot more than that to offend me.

 

[miguksaram]

The school my son attends is run by a Grand Master who has over 50 years in TKD beginning in Korea, which is more time then many of you making comments have been alive. Just like any other school, he has his requirements for BB's which everyone must abide by for promotion.

Who is your GM?

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

No matter what anyone says, it's all opinion. It's entirely up to the school where each person practices to determine the belt requirements for advancement.

No and yes.

No: If you are running a school that is associated with any organization, there are organizational requirements that are not a matter of opinion. The Kukkiwon requirements of both curriculum and age are spelled out in their bylaws. I posted a link to these much earlier in this thread.

Yes: it is up to the individual school to evaluate how well those requirements were met and to impose additional requirements.

Agree, don't agree... there is no right answer, just what you think the requirement should be, or what it is at your school.

What they should be: Proficiency in the curriculum set down by either the organization or dojo cho if it is an independent school. The ability to to effectively spar under the rule set of whatever organization their school is a part of. The ability to defend one's self reasonably well using the style.

At my school: GM Kim grades the students on the base KKW material. They need to know all of their taegeuk poomsae, must demonstrated sparring proficiency in the WTF rule set, have a working knowledge of Korean terminology, and perform all of the hand and leg techniques in various stances. Four different breaks of GM Kim's choosing.

Our point of individualization is that the test is a very physical test. His main emphasis is on indomitable spirit and the student's mind. A full warmup complete with a ton of pushups are all a part of the test. 100 each of the basic kicks (front, turning, side, axe), 100 punches, an assorted number of blocks as he calls them out until he is satisfied. The student must also know all of the self defense techniques that he teaches in the class, which are drawn from hapkido (he is a former ROK Special Army HKD instructor). After all that, you spar four high belt/black belt students of varying sizes with no rest in between and then spar one of the instructors.

The poom belts are no exception to this. The only real difference is that they generally break thinner boards and generally spar kids in their age range. Exceptionally large kids will get the same boards and spar opponents that are more appropriately sized, usually teens.

TKD is so bastardized in America (overseas as well, and even somewhat in Korea) that it's impossible to set any type of "standardization" any longer.

In general? Within specific organizations? Bastardized in what way? Not that you are necesarily wrong, but that is a fairly sweeping statement.

I do not agree that any type of standardization is impossible: The Kukkiwon sets a curriculum standard. It is fairly brief in comparison to what it could be, so within a single org, yes, a standard of some kind can be set.

The school my son attends is run by a Grand Master who has over 50 years in TKD beginning in Korea, which is more time then many of you making comments have been alive.

Without trying to seem condescending, that is irrelevant to the discussion.

Grand masters of all ages have their own motivations and reasons for doing things. I have see high ranking GMs go from being total hard core to being belt factories as the years progress, putting belts on students who are an embarrasment to their school.

No, I am not saying that about yours; I do not know the man, so I would not make that assumption. Nor am I saying it about most. But it does happen. Ninth degree rank and age are no guarantee that the school is not a McDojo or that he is true to what the standards were envisioned to be when he began practicing.

I can say that Jhoon Rhee schools had very different standards of BB's when I studied under him in the seventies as compared to what the standards are now (whether or not that is good or bad is a different discussion). And that guy is a TKD institution!

In the end, GM's gotta eat. You would be surprised how quickly one compromises their lofty standards when they need to pay rent on the building.

Just like any other school, he has his requirements for BB's which everyone must abide by for promotion.

And your son met those requirements and thus is a BB in that school.

Same as I am a BB in my own school. If I head down to Twin Fist's school, they may decide that I am not up to their standards and I may not be able to wear my belt until I catch up on what they do.

Daniel

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Why is it wrong for a brown belt to teach? If they have been it for a good amount of time, in our school's case you would most likely been in it for about 4-5 years, why couldn't they teach? Again, I'm not saying they are running the place. They are just instructing a class and there is still a black belt on the floor to supervise.

And in many other schools, that five year brown belt would be a second dan black.

Daniel

 

[ATC]

Wow!!! This thread really took on a life of its own. Can't wait to see where it goes next.

Maybe the actual topic is dead now and maybe we should close this one. Or maybe not. Just saying.

 

[KELLYG]

TKD FATHER,

I am so glad to hear that you are involved and proud of your son's achievements. There are so many children that are lost and have no one to care for them. I think regular practice in Martial Arts is a good thing and will benefit him in the long run. Belts and who gets them and when is a hot button topic here. There are just as many opinions as there are colors in the rainbow. A couple of points Po om Dan is what a younger child earns until they reach a certain age period. If you took your son to another school to train he may be backed down to a red/black belt (poom belt) The questions about the tournaments are legitimate questions. There is a vast difference in preforming at a local tournament with 5 to 15 persons in a bracket than one of the larger tournaments who may have 50 to 100 competitors per bracket. Teaching and helping to teach in class I an awsome experience. Explaining it to someone else is and excellent way to set it in your own mind firmly. As for masters and grandmasters, don't worry so much about the number of stripes on the belt it is not necessarily a valid bench mark of their skills. I have seen high ranking masters that I would not allow to teach my dog. Since I don't you, your son, or his teachers I would have to say I have no basis to judge anyting.

 

[TKD_Father]

miguksaram - Glad you didn't take offense, my comments were NOT meant to attack you, or your school in any way. You asked Who is your GM? I've learned NOT to divulge any information on these forums lest the sharks attack. I tried sharing my personal experiences only to have them attacked, so I won't do that again.

Daniel, you said Without trying to seem condescending, that is irrelevant to the discussion. When I mentioned that the GM at my son's school has over 50 years of experience.

My comments were in response to a poster saying there are literally DECADES of experience here to gleen from. The Grand Master at my son's school has been involved in TKD for over five decades - half a century - himself.

I'm glad you posted the requirements for your school. After reading through them I see that there isn't much difference.

They need to know all of their taegeuk poomsae Same.

must demonstrated sparring proficiency in the WTF rule set Little different. My son had to spar 2v1 and 3v1.

have a working knowledge of Korean terminology Same.

and perform all of the hand and leg techniques in various stances Same.

Four different breaks of GM Kim's choosing. Different. Only 2 breaks required, though one is a cement brick.

A full warmup complete with a ton of pushups are all a part of the test. 100 each of the basic kicks (front, turning, side, axe), 100 punches, an assorted number of blocks as he calls them out until he is satisfied Same. Except all warm up kicks are Jumping. One set of 100 Jumping Front Snaps - 50 Pushups, a set of 100 Jumping Round House - 50 Pushups. I think they did a total of 500 Jumping Kicks with 200 Pushups spaced between. One student was excused to "yak"... he came back in and continued a couple minutes later.

The student must also know all of the self defense techniques Same.

After all that, you spar four high belt/black belt students of varying sizes with no rest in between and then spar one of the instructors. Different. As I mentioned before, it was 2v1 sparring, then 3v1 sparring. My son's school is more of a Poomse school.

It seems that our requirements are very close eh Daniel?

 

[mango.man]

There is a vast difference in preforming at a local tournament with 5 to 15 persons in a bracket than one of the larger tournaments who may have 50 to 100 competitors per bracket.

I just wanted to point out that there is not that much difference between a bracket of 15 and a bracket of 100.

A bracket of 15 means that 1 person gets a bye and needs 3 wins for gold and the other 14 need 4 wins for gold.

A bracket of 100 means that 28 people get a bye and need 6 wins for gold and the other 72 need 7 wins for gold.

So the difference between the winning in a bracket of 15 vs winning in a bracket of 100 is as small as just 2 fights which is not as overwhelming as the size of the bracket might make it seem.

My point is that the difference between performing well at a local event vs a national or international event is the quality of the people that will show up, not how many will show up.