Youth Black Belts

[Cirdan]

We should just issue mandatory 10th dans to every child born and be done with it.

 

[Gorilla]

We should just issue mandatory 10th dans to every child born and be done with it.

Really don't get your point?

 

[tshadowchaser]

I see this thread is once again alive so I'll add to it

Youth black belts depend on what knowledge and ability the school issuing them requires. My question to those school is how can this 9,10 or 6 year old train me to defend against a knife attack, a drunk, survive in a bar room brawl, defend myself against multiple opponents who are bigger and out weigh me, or deal with a marine who has drank to much when they have possibly never seen these things, most certainly never been in the bars so they have no idea what the environment is likeand is way to young to appreciate the violence that may occur.
What exactly are these kids with their vast knowledge of the art and their black belt supposed to be able to pass on to an adult about the realities of violence in the real world

 

[itsrosa82]

In my opinion, this whole problem with young black belts stems from our attachment over the idea of what a black belt "should" mean. It's a personal opinion that we hold to so strongly it causes us to look down on others and their acheivements because our attachment to this idea somehow makes us believe that an "undeserving" person having a black belt demeans our own. Earning a black belt is a personal journey and regardless of age or ability level, if it's not our student in question, it's really none of our business. We should just be happy about our own accomplishments and worry less about what the school down the street is doing. Anyone who is emotionally invested enough to rant about the atrocity of child black belts on the internet doesn't really have a problem with young black belts. Their problem is the inability to let go of what they think a black belt should mean. As with all things all things in life, we are the cause of our own suffering.

 

[Gorilla]

I see this thread is once again alive so I'll add to it

Youth black belts depend on what knowledge and ability the school issuing them requires. My question to those school is how can this 9,10 or 6 year old train me to defend against a knife attack, a drunk, survive in a bar room brawl, defend myself against multiple opponents who are bigger and out weigh me, or deal with a marine who has drank to much when they have possibly never seen these things, most certainly never been in the bars so they have no idea what the environment is likeand is way to young to appreciate the violence that may occur.
What exactly are these kids with their vast knowledge of the art and their black belt supposed to be able to pass on to an adult about the realities of violence in the real world

If that is your standard ok....but most adult BB that I know would not pass that standard! It seems a standard that I have heard on the internet quite a lot though!

My advice is stay out of bars that would put you in danger! If you find yourself in one leave! Go find a place that is not so threatening or dangerous they do exist!

Based on a lot of what I have heard we should hold our BB tests in Bars!

 

[Archtkd]

I see this thread is once again alive so I'll add to it

Youth black belts depend on what knowledge and ability the school issuing them requires. My question to those school is how can this 9,10 or 6 year old train me to defend against a knife attack, a drunk, survive in a bar room brawl, defend myself against multiple opponents who are bigger and out weigh me, or deal with a marine who has drank to much when they have possibly never seen these things, most certainly never been in the bars so they have no idea what the environment is likeand is way to young to appreciate the violence that may occur.
What exactly are these kids with their vast knowledge of the art and their black belt supposed to be able to pass on to an adult about the realities of violence in the real world

What does a 9, 10 or six year old have do do with teaching? Is it your understanidng that all taekwondo blackbelts teach? Blackbelt = teacher?

 

[Dirty Dog]

What does a 9, 10 or six year old have do do with teaching? Is it your understanidng that all taekwondo blackbelts teach? Blackbelt = teacher?

In some schools, yes. That's the root of this whole topic. A black belt means different things to different systems, schools, and individuals.
I've said repeatedly that we do not do baby black belts. Other schools do. The huge variance in the meaning of "Black Belt" is one of the reasons why belt ranks don't matter. Outside the narrow confines of the school that awards then, they mean nothing.


Sent from an old fashioned 300 baud acoustic modem by whistling into the handset. Really.

 

[Tames D]

What does a 9, 10 or six year old have do do with teaching? Is it your understanidng that all taekwondo blackbelts teach? Blackbelt = teacher?

I don't believe black belts should be required to teach any more than I believe every master carpenter should be required to teach his trade at the local community college. There are alot of people that believe a martial arts student should be teaching as soon as they get their very first lesson as a white belt. It makes no sense to me.

 

[TrueJim]

My question to those school is how can this 9,10 or 6 year old train me to defend against a knife attack, a drunk, survive in a bar room brawl, defend myself against multiple opponents who are bigger and out weigh me, or deal with a marine who has drank to much when they have possibly never seen these things, most certainly never been in the bars so they have no idea what the environment is likeand is way to young to appreciate the violence that may occur. What exactly are these kids with their vast knowledge of the art and their black belt supposed to be able to pass on to an adult about the realities of violence in the real world

I was reminded of this thread just now while reading this webpage: Questions | Grand Master Jong Soo Park I'm not saying I agree with Grandmaster Jong Soo Park, but still...according to him (speaking about adults I assume): "If you train regularly you will be quite proficient and you will be able to defend yourself after six months." Again, I'm not saying I agree with that...seeing it just now reminded me of this thread. Six months? That's definitely a different point of view!

With regards to martial arts as a way to deal with real-world violence... Hypothetically, if the defining quality of a Black Belt were in fact the ability to deal with real-world violence, then not only should children not be black belts, but neither should old people.

 

[WaterGal]

I see this thread is once again alive so I'll add to it

Youth black belts depend on what knowledge and ability the school issuing them requires. My question to those school is how can this 9,10 or 6 year old train me to defend against a knife attack, a drunk, survive in a bar room brawl, defend myself against multiple opponents who are bigger and out weigh me, or deal with a marine who has drank to much when they have possibly never seen these things, most certainly never been in the bars so they have no idea what the environment is likeand is way to young to appreciate the violence that may occur.
What exactly are these kids with their vast knowledge of the art and their black belt supposed to be able to pass on to an adult about the realities of violence in the real world

Well, like you say, it depends on what knowledge and ability is required of them. KKW doesn't require anyone of any age to know how to defend themselves against a drunk Marine with a knife in order to get a black belt.

Also, why would a kid be teaching a class, just because they got a black belt? Teaching is a different skill from doing. Even someone that does know how to defend themselves against a drunk Marine with a knife doesn't necessarily know how to teach that skill.

 

[Archtkd]

In some schools, yes. That's the root of this whole topic. A black belt means different things to different systems, schools, and individuals.
I've said repeatedly that we do not do baby black belts. Other schools do. The huge variance in the meaning of "Black Belt" is one of the reasons why belt ranks don't matter. Outside the narrow confines of the school that awards then, they mean nothing.

Sent from an old fashioned 300 baud acoustic modem by whistling into the handset. Really.

I want to know which taekwondo school -- one -- where 6-year old blackbelts are teaching.

 

[Dirty Dog]

I want to know which taekwondo school -- one -- where 6-year old blackbelts are teaching.

No idea. As I said, we don't do baby black belts in part because we do expect a black belt to be able to teach.

 

[tshadowchaser]

In truth I did not see that this thread was in the TKD fora of the forum.
That however dose not change my personal opinion of youth black belts.
I belive that youth black belts have lowered the standard of what a black belt is and given the American (if not world) less respect for a person having a black belt.
Years ago if a person had a black belt they had gone through some hard sometimes brutal learning experences and could handle themselves in almost any situation. Today a black belt can be found almost every time you turn around and about half of them are youngsters.
I'm not trying to bash TKD or the standards with in the different TKD associations. As I have just said I did not realize this thread was in the TKD section of the forum but that dose not change my mind on the OP.
If your school system style what have you believes that a young child should have a black belt so be it just do not expect me to hold them in the same respect I do an adult black belt. (correction on that there are many adult black belts that child could most likely teach a few things to so No I do not hold all black belts with the same respect)

 

[Archtkd]

No idea. As I said, we don't do baby black belts in part because we do expect a black belt to be able to teach.

That's interesting and I don't want to sound like I'm being rude or asking silly questions. Are you talking about all levels of blackbelts in your dojang? If that's the case how are they trained and certified to teach. Also how many blackbelts from your dojang have moved on to open their own succesful dojangs over, say, the last 10 years. My thinking is that your dojang must be producing a lot of teachers.

 

[Dirty Dog]

That's interesting and I don't want to sound like I'm being rude or asking silly questions. Are you talking about all levels of blackbelts in your dojang? If that's the case how are they trained and certified to teach. Also how many blackbelts from your dojang have moved on to open their own succesful dojangs over, say, the last 10 years. My thinking is that your dojang must be producing a lot of teachers.

Yes, all levels.
But there are two things to keep in mind.
One is ABLE to teach; not required, other than working with students at our school.
Two is that most don't have any particular interest in opening their own school. I certainly don't.
I've been associated with this school for 5 years.

In that time, one opened a school as a 4th Dan. He has chosen to follow a more KKW-oriented path and is now a KKW 5th Dan.

One 1st Dan (and her 1st geup husband) are with the local PD. They've done some local MMA competition and work with other officers on unarmed techniques.

Two other 1st Dans were active in MA clubs at university. One is now in med school, the other is finishing a poli-sci masters and plans to join the Dept of State, hoping to become a diplomat.

Another is pre-vet med. She also has a 10 acre plot that belongs to her family on which she runs an ongoing community service project to grow veggies for donation to local shelters and food banks. She's the only one of the three still local, and still training with us regularly. The other two come visit when they're in town. None of them are pursuing promotions at this point.

One 2nd Dan is a Dept of Corrections officer. He's on their in-house version of SWAT (I don't recall what they call the team). He trains regularly, but is more interested in promotions at the DoC than Tae Kwon Do.

Two other 1st Dans (mother and daughter) train only sporadically now. Mom teaches special needs at the elementary school level. She uses some of the drills she was taught to help kids work on focus, concentration, and coordination. Daughter is studying performing arts, but swears the Tae Kwon Do helps with dance.

That's all the Dan promotions in that 5 year period. Only one new school, but all are people who use their training in positive, ongoing ways.

The only certification to teach is GM signing the Dan certificate. Since the expectation is that you have to be capable of teaching the material you've been taught to get that rank, there's no real need for a separate piece of paper. It's different in a group the size of the KKW or ATA or ITF, of course.


Sent from an old fashioned 300 baud acoustic modem by whistling into the handset. Really.

 

[K-man]

With regards to martial arts as a way to deal with real-world violence... Hypothetically, if the defining quality of a Black Belt were in fact the ability to deal with real-world violence, then not only should children not be black belts, but neither should old people.

I think there is a major difference. The guy that has the BB he earned as a child of 12 still thinks of himself as a BB in that style even when he moves on to something different like MMA. Often an older person who has decided the time is right to stop training no longer considers himself a black belt. In fact many of those, if they come back to training, will insist on wearing a white belt.

The sad part is that there is a fair chance the guy who went on to MMA will bag his original training as inadequate to defend himself. The good thing is that the older person could still use elements of his training to defend himself.
:asian:

 

[Master Dan]

In my opinion, this whole problem with young black belts stems from our attachment over the idea of what a black belt "should" mean. It's a personal opinion that we hold to so strongly it causes us to look down on others and their acheivements because our attachment to this idea somehow makes us believe that an "undeserving" person having a black belt demeans our own. Earning a black belt is a personal journey and regardless of age or ability level, if it's not our student in question, it's really none of our business. We should just be happy about our own accomplishments and worry less about what the school down the street is doing. Anyone who is emotionally invested enough to rant about the atrocity of child black belts on the internet doesn't really have a problem with young black belts. Their problem is the inability to let go of what they think a black belt should mean. As with all things all things in life, we are the cause of our own suffering.

Your statement is probably one of the best put premise in just a few words not just about youth black belts but it covers all opinions related to other styles, certifications or training that many times the true issue is with ourselves. Thank you

 

[Gorilla]

Your statement is probably one of the best put premise in just a few words not just about youth black belts but it covers all opinions related to other styles, certifications or training that many times the true issue is with ourselves. Thank you

You are right that is probably the best quote I have seen on this subject!

 

[WaterGal]

In truth I did not see that this thread was in the TKD fora of the forum.
That however dose not change my personal opinion of youth black belts.
I belive that youth black belts have lowered the standard of what a black belt is and given the American (if not world) less respect for a person having a black belt.

I think that a lot of Americans have an over-inflated sense of what a black belt is, from watching too many martial arts movies.

 

[Dirty Dog]

I think that a lot of Americans have an over-inflated sense of what a black belt is, from watching too many martial arts movies.

It's equally valid (and more historically accurate) to say that the black belt has been watered down, in much the same way that college degrees have been watered down. At one time, a person earning either meant they had put in a lot of time and effort and had significant skills.

Now, I can show you people with a black belt who couldn't fight their way out of a paper bag, and people with Masters degrees who don't know the difference between your and you're.