Youth Black Belts

[ATC]

Youth black belts are meaningless. You mean to tell me that some 10 yr old 2nd dan is actually able to use the techniques properly against a 30 yr old, 225 lb aggressive? Please. Unless the kids gone through the Spartan military training, 1 backhand from the adult no belt will send your 2nd dan flying and crying. Just because he graduated 1st grade, doesn't mean he can hang with the high schoolers. 99% of kids programs are watered down, scaled back and simplified, because 99% of kids out there don't have the physical attributes, the mental ability or the attention span to hack it. Thinking that your 3rd dan rug rat is comparable to some adult who's worked longer than yours has ben aware of their own boogers is an insult to every adult who has bleed, sweat and worked through pain to achieve a real belt.

But, we know how kids programs go. You pay for this, and you pay for that, and you pay even more for some special high intensity training, and that is exactly what you get. Lots of it and a lighter wallet for a glorified gym and baby sitting session.

But if you really think your kid's all that because you bought him a belt, let him spar with the big kids. Let him hang with the grown ups. Any legit dan should be able to do it, regardless of system. Too mean? Then stop living in your fantasy world and giving your kid a false sense of security before you get him hurt.

I just re-read this statement and this statement does not hold water. All belts are meaningless without experience. I have seen many so called teenage and young adults get creamed in a real fight with people their own age and size let alone someone 150 pounds heavier. All you did was to discredit any belt and age with a outlandish hypothetical. It is like saying a child using a .22 cal gun is usless againt a charging elephant. Well that statement holds true for any person holding the .22. However a .22 would be just fine in a more realist hypothetical. Using the extreams to prove a point is what I see as meaningless.

 

[ATC]

I call Belt Factory till i see some video

There are two in my siq. One from a year ago and the other from 2 years ago. From there you can see others on my YT site.

Now you talk alot and bang your chest the hardest on here but where are your videos also. So until I see some videos of you and your's I'll just call you a Keyboard Warrior.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I think you misinterpreted Gorilla's post. What he said was 2nd at 9 and will be a 3rd at 12 1/2 which means his son has been 2nd for over 3 years and this 3 months is to ensure he's ready.

That's how I read it, is that correct Gorilla?

That is how I read it as well.

Daniel

 

[ralphmcpherson]

wow , what a thread , makes for great reading. I personally dont agree with child black belts. My club allows for child black belts as long as they pass the same criteria as the adults , I still disagree with it but it doesnt affect my training so I dont get too worried about it. I dont , though , expect any child (irrespective of belt level) to be able to defend themselves against an adult , it just aint gonna happen. In saying that I dont think a 92 year old 9th dan would go very well against a big, fit , strong ,athletic guy in his 20's even though he posseses extensive knowledge , its all relative. The one point that I have to agree with is the one about sport tkd only schools having a different belt standard. I am probably biased on that as I really do not like sport tkd at all. I love tkd with a passion and train most days of the week and yet when the olympics are on I dont bother watching any of the tkd as I'd rather sit and watch paint dry.

 

[Twin Fist]

Now you talk alot and bang your chest the hardest on here but where are your videos also. So until I see some videos of you and your's I'll just call you a Keyboard Warrior.

uh, i HAVE a bunch of videos up, of both ME and my students.

look for threads created by me

 

[Twin Fist]

ok, i cant judge his kata (thats ok, olympic style crap factories dont care about kata anyway) or self defense (ditto) i will say that he is fairly skilled at olympic style crap sparring. Except for the falling over that is....but thats olympic style crap sparring for you

can he teach?
how is his self defense?
how is his kata?

did he go through that same 3 day BB test you told us about?

so, in my school owner opinion, i cant say he doesnt deserve a Jr Black, not enough information. JUST based on his sparring, i would say, sure, Jr BB. Which is BTW a HUGE compliment comming from me.

i can say that in my opinion, NO KID DESERVES A 3RD STRIPE AT 12 FRIGGIN YEARS OLD

 

[Twin Fist]

Now you talk alot and bang your chest the hardest on here but where are your videos also. So until I see some videos of you and your's I'll just call you a Keyboard Warrior.

uh, Slick, I aint the one claiming that my 2 year old deserves to be a black belt so i dont have anything TO prove, and i have already said that my opinions ont his subject of embryos getting black belts are just that, my opinions and i dont care what anyone else thinks.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Once again, the whole question is what the black belt represents in a particular school.

If it represents that you have learned all of the kyu grade material, then age is irrelevent.

If it represents that you have made a great deal of personal improvement, then once again, age is irrelevent.

If it represents tournament skill, then age is irrelevent because the rank holder is only pitted against those of the same age, size, and belt range.

If it represents that you can proficiently defend yourself against an adult attacker using the style, then age will be a factor.

Daniel

 

[ralphmcpherson]

Once again, the whole question is what the black belt represents in a particular school.

If it represents that you have learned all of the kyu grade material, then age is irrelevent.

If it represents that you have made a great deal of personal improvement, then once again, age is irrelevent.

If it represents tournament skill, then age is irrelevent because the rank holder is only pitted against those of the same age, size, and belt range.

If it represents that you can proficiently defend yourself against an adult attacker using the style, then age will be a factor.

Daniel

can any child under 12 or 13 defend themselves against an adult? I doubt it. If they could it would most probably be because they are very big/strong for their age but not due to martial arts skills. This is why I personally dont believe in child black belts. In saying that though , I know of some very good adult black belts who are only 5 foot tall and only weigh about 50 kilos and I doubt they would do too well against a big strong , well built 6 1/2 foot monster of a man. Physical size will always play a part irrespective of how many skills someone has in my opinion.

 

[Gorilla]

I think you misinterpreted Gorilla's post. What he said was 2nd at 9 and will be a 3rd at 12 1/2 which means his son has been 2nd for over 3 years and this 3 months is to ensure he's ready.

That's how I read it, is that correct Gorilla?

7 1/2 1st Poom
9 2nd Poom

He will be 12 1/2 when he gets his 3rd poom. if he gets thru the 3 month testing period and passes the test. Nothing is for sure.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

can any child under 12 or 13 defend themselves against an adult? I doubt it.

As do I. That is why I said that in that case, age would be a factor.

If they could it would most probably be because they are very big/strong for their age but not due to martial arts skills. This is why I personally dont believe in child black belts. In saying that though , I know of some very good adult black belts who are only 5 foot tall and only weigh about 50 kilos and I doubt they would do too well against a big strong , well built 6 1/2 foot monster of a man. Physical size will always play a part irrespective of how many skills someone has in my opinion.

There are probably some twelve or thirteen year olds who have the martial skill to defend themselves against an adult. These are the very rare exceptions, and likely are kids who have had rigorous and practical training from a very young age, the kind of training that kids classes in 99% of MA schools do not offer, particularly in the US.

Daniel

 

[Gorilla]

That's great Gorilla. Where are you located? If close enough it would be nice to have my son spar or cross train with yours. My son is 10 and is a second poom right now. He has a way to go for his 3rd but he is still pluggin away at it. In our dojang there is no one his age that he can train with as he destroys them all. He has to fight the older 2nd dan girls and still beats them all pretty easy. Just today he put a 3rd dan teenager (boy) down for the count with a back kick. The kick was an accident but still he drop a kid 6 years older than him and about 60 pounds heavier.

My daughter is also a second poom (12 years old) and could be better than my son but she does not apply herself.

I think every dojang has one, maybe two kids that are very good and way ahead of the curve. Keep training him hard and don't let him give up. Maybe some day your's and mine will meet up in the ring.

Two Dragons TKD Las Vegas just let me know we would love to have you come by. We may have a rumble in November. My Son is a 4 time USAT National Medalist in the Junior Olympics World Class division 2008 National Champion 10/11. My daughter is a 2 time AAU National team member and current Junior Fin weight member.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I just re-read this statement and this statement does not hold water. All belts are meaningless without experience. I have seen many so called teenage and young adults get creamed in a real fight with people their own age and size let alone someone 150 pounds heavier. All you did was to discredit any belt and age with a outlandish hypothetical. It is like saying a child using a .22 cal gun is usless againt a charging elephant. Well that statement holds true for any person holding the .22. However a .22 would be just fine in a more realist hypothetical. Using the extreams to prove a point is what I see as meaningless.

Though I did not agree with his post in its entirety, it does hold a fair amount of water.

The gun analogy does not hold water because the gun is not related to any training that a person may have and an adult attacker is not a charging elephant

Kids can be taught strategies that are effective to varying degrees against an adult attacker. But most kids classes do not focus on these. They do focus on kids squaring off against other kids.

Now, to be fair, in all likelihood, it is other kids that a kid will most often need to defend themselves against. Unfortunately, a cursory read of the news paper will reveal that adult attackers are a very real threat to kids.

Daniel

 

[Gorilla]

As do I. That is why I said that in that case, age would be a factor.


There are probably some twelve or thirteen year olds who have the martial skill to defend themselves against an adult. These are the very rare exceptions, and likely are kids who have had rigorous and practical training from a very young age, the kind of training that kids classes in 99% of MA schools do not offer, particularly in the US.

Daniel

Trains 6 days a week. 2 hours per day. Up to 6 hours on Saturday. lots of road work. runs up to 5 miles. does allot of track work for explosiveness high hurdles sprint work. In Las Vegas it can get as hot as 120. They also do High altitude training at Mount Charleston 7000 feet. The amount of training does change based on trying to achieve peak performance. The lowest they get is 1 hour per day and 2 hours on Saturday.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

Though I did not agree with his post in its entirety, it does hold a fair amount of water.

The gun analogy does not hold water because the gun is not related to any training that a person may have and an adult attacker is not a charging elephant

Kids can be taught strategies that are effective to varying degrees against an adult attacker. But most kids classes do not focus on these. They do focus on kids squaring off against other kids.

Now, to be fair, in all likelihood, it is other kids that a kid will most often need to defend themselves against. Unfortunately, a cursory read of the news paper will reveal that adult attackers are a very real threat to kids.

Daniel

very true. Most clubs are just teaching kids to defend themselves against other kids in the school play ground. As most young kids in the playground have literally no fighting skills whatsoever , it gives the kid with a little martial arts training a false impression of how good they are , and that can be dangerous. I remember a young kid who trains at my club who is really quite average and doesnt practice very much , if at all. Anyway , he goes to school with my daughter and one day my daughter came home and told me that this kid had easily kicked the crap out of two kids who were picking on his older brother. Of course at that age it probably went straight to his head and he will think he is unbeatable but the 2 kids he fought (primary school age but a year older than him) had never attempted to throw a punch or fight anyone in their life. Against anyone with any experience he would lose easily but the average 10 year old in the playground has no idea how to fight, so a little basic punching and kicking ability can go a long way.

 

[Gorilla]

forget this

post up some video of these 7 year olds that deserve a BB

otherwise? i am calling "belt factory" on this crap

7 year old BB? CRAP

12 year old 3rd black? UBER CRAP

it isnt personal

I dont know you, i dont know your kids, this is crap is out of hand and why i am LEAVING TKD

I don't post videos of My kids fights or training. I would invite you to come by and train with us if you are ever in Vegas. You can then judge for yourself. Sorry to see that you are leaving TKD. I have run into many people that feel the way that you feel. I understand it. The school that my kids are currently with is a hard training sport school. When my son walked in as a(9 year old) 2nd degree the big gun fighter got mad and stated what have we turned into an ATA school. He changed his tune rapidly when he saw that he could train just as hard and just as long. He is currently my kids biggest supporter

 

[Gorilla]

ok, i cant judge his kata (thats ok, olympic style crap factories dont care about kata anyway) or self defense (ditto) i will say that he is fairly skilled at olympic style crap sparring. Except for the falling over that is....but thats olympic style crap sparring for you

can he teach?
how is his self defense?
how is his kata?

did he go through that same 3 day BB test you told us about?

so, in my school owner opinion, i cant say he doesnt deserve a Jr Black, not enough information. JUST based on his sparring, i would say, sure, Jr BB. Which is BTW a HUGE compliment comming from me.

i can say that in my opinion, NO KID DESERVES A 3RD STRIPE AT 12 FRIGGIN YEARS OLD

My sons forms are fine and his self defense is good. He can teach he taught his sister most of the forms(she got 3rd at National 2007) He has had around 200 sport TKD fights. He can beat his sister who is National Level Junior.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Trains 6 days a week. 2 hours per day. Up to 6 hours on Saturday. lots of road work. runs up to 5 miles. does allot of track work for explosiveness high hurdles sprint work. In Las Vegas it can get as hot as 120. They also do High altitude training at Mount Charleston 7000 feet. The amount of training does change based on trying to achieve peak performance. The lowest they get is 1 hour per day and 2 hours on Saturday.

That is excellent training for an athletic event, but the only part of it that has any bearing on defending themselves against an adult is what goes in in class. And unless a child is being pitted against adult opponents in realistic scenarios (WTF sparing is not at all representative of an attack, particularly an adult attacking a child) that allow full contact strikes to the kids from the adults and with both kids and the adults in minimal padding, then he or she is not trained to face an adult attacker outside of the ring.

Also, the biggest thing that a child has to face from an adult is not punches and kicks, but being grabbed. Defense against grapples is generally fairly shallow in most TKD schools, and that includes the adults. A kid being grabbed from behind and tossed into the trunk of a car is much more likely than an adult coming at the kid with kicks and punches that can be dodged or parried.

Remember that an adult attacking a child is generally different from an adult attacking another adult. You and I are more likely to have to defend ourselves in a traditional fist fight due to some clown getting out of hand and losing their temper in a social situation. An adult attacking a kid is not interested in defeating them in a fight. They are interested in either sexually abusing or killing the child or both. It is the same dynamic that occurs between rapists and their victims. Also consider that victims are chosen. Adults who attack kids are like rapists: they are predators. They choose their victims and strike when they have the greatest likelihood of success. It is not just a question of size and strength differential; the element of surprise and the factor of the attacker being armed both make a huge difference.

The athletic training you describe would come in handy in two aspects of an attack: the first is that being in shape is beneficial to withstanding impact, and the second is that if your son can disengage from the adult, it is very likely that your son can outrun most adults, given how you describe his training.

Lastly, in no way am I belittling your son's training; it sounds excellent. But he is training for competition, which is a different fight than that of dealing with an adult attacker.

Daniel

 

[Gorilla]

That is excellent training for an athletic event, but the only part of it that has any bearing on defending themselves against an adult is what goes in in class. And unless a child is being pitted against adult opponents in realistic scenarios (WTF sparing is not at all representative of an attack, particularly an adult attacking a child) that allow full contact strikes to the kids from the adults and with both kids and the adults in minimal padding, then he or she is not trained to face an adult attacker outside of the ring.

Also, the biggest thing that a child has to face from an adult is not punches and kicks, but being grabbed. Defense against grapples is generally fairly shallow in most TKD schools, and that includes the adults. A kid being grabbed from behind and tossed into the trunk of a car is much more likely than an adult coming at the kid with kicks and punches that can be dodged or parried.

Remember that an adult attacking a child is generally different from an adult attacking another adult. You and I are more likely to have to defend ourselves in a traditional fist fight due to some clown getting out of hand and losing their temper in a social situation. An adult attacking a kid is not interested in defeating them in a fight. They are interested in either sexually abusing or killing the child or both. It is the same dynamic that occurs between rapists and their victims. Also consider that victims are chosen. Adults who attack kids are like rapists: they are predators. They choose their victims and strike when they have the greatest likelihood of success. It is not just a question of size and strength differential; the element of surprise and the factor of the attacker being armed both make a huge difference.

The athletic training you describe would come in handy in two aspects of an attack: the first is that being in shape is beneficial to withstanding impact, and the second is that if your son can disengage from the adult, it is very likely that your son can outrun most adults, given how you describe his training.

Lastly, in no way am I belittling your son's training; it sounds excellent. But he is training for competition, which is a different fight than that of dealing with an adult attacker.

Daniel

It would be very difficult to catch my son adult or child. He has extensive SD training. He is has been focusing on the sportside but he will be doing allot of forms and self def again. He will be testing for 3rd in 3 months if he gets thru the 3 month prep period. All his black belt test have been with adults. He trains with adults and meets the same standards, The most important part of self def is to be aware of your surroundings. He has a very acute sense of awareness and this has kept him out of trouble so far.

 

[Twin Fist]

sorry, i dont believe it

vids for proof, or BELT FACTORY