Youth Black Belts

[mango.man]

Don't forget that you also came away with some tips on where to get some decent coffee

 

[terryl965]

Gorilla I believe this was a productive thread and I for one thank you for starting it. We will all have a different views about whhat is and what is not, but the one thing we can all agree upon is we are all linked together with the common thread of TKD. I love all my brothers and sisters of this fine art and sport.

 

[Twin Fist]

i like pie

 

[cmassman]

Lots of opinions about Youth Black Belts...What did I come away with!!! A Black Belt is in the eye of the beholder. We are all quick to judge others and never really look at ourselves in the mirror. Self Defense and Sport are two different things both with merits!!! When someone says "never" in matters such as these they are usually wrong. There always the exception the prodigy. Finally most parents think the their kids are the exception the prodigy and like the guy who says "never" they are usually wrong. I hope that everyone enjoyed this thread as much as I did.

Gorilla TKD Addict

Very well said.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Accidenally hit the button before I was finished typing and did not realize it. Oops. I have not had my coffee yet.

Daniel

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Costco is good . . .

Anyone around Louisville, KY I can tell you where the best cappuccinos outside of Europe are . . .

And if you need a helping of 7 year old Black Belts in TKD, I can point you in that direction too . . .

(Just keeping it relevant . . . )

Avoid McDonald's imitation Starbucks drinks if you can. Now, if the McDojo really wants to be family friendly, they should have a coffee shoppe built in. Us working professionals would feel right at home.

As far as store bought coffee goes, I find Melita is very consistently good. With a shot of Jamison, it is even better!

Daniel

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Lots of opinions about Youth Black Belts...What did I come away with!!! A Black Belt is in the eye of the beholder. We are all quick to judge others and never really look at ourselves in the mirror. Self Defense and Sport are two different things both with merits!!!

Nobody here disputes that. But one should not be awarded a BB for sports training alone. I think that USAT would do very well to look at how fencers are rated. They rate them as U (unrated) or E-A, A being the best and E being the least. Those ratings go up and down based on competition record, frequency, and who you compete against. An undefeated record against e-rated fencers, for example, will not get you an a-rating.

When someone says "never" in matters such as these they are usually wrong. There always the exception the prodigy. Finally most parents think the their kids are the exception the prodigy and like the guy who says "never" they are usually wrong.

The difference is that the guy or gal who says "never" is usually speaking in hyperbole: "you never see Datsuns on the road anymore" means that the car are rare, so you generally will not see them. But I do see them once in a while.

On the other hand, the parents who think that their kids are prodigies are not speaking in hyperbole. Their are plenty of parents who really do believe that their kid who flails about wildly in some attempt at Koryo is flawlessly performing it. Most often, this is a combination of being blinded by parental pride and not knowing what they are looking at.

No, not all, or even most, kids flail about, but I have seen kiddie black belts that do, and they often have parents attached to them who extole the expertise of their child.

And it is a rare, rare child indeed who can effectively defend themselves against an adult attacker, something that is traditionally associated with holding a black belt. Often, mom and dad really believe that their eight year old can defend themselves against an adult attacker.

And this is why I feel that giving them black belts is a disservice; it instills a false confidence.

Note, that I do not feel that it is the child who is undeserving; nine times out of ten, sport/competition not withstanding, the child is simply not physically ready the level of training that is traditionally associated with the holder of a black belt.

As for kids who excel in sport TKD and hold rank in a sport only school, I would like to see the WTF come up with a sport belt that denotes that yes, the student is a BB, but it is in sport TKD, not traditional TKD. That would eliminate the sport aspect of this discussion, which in all honestly, is really a separate discussion.

Daniel

 

[NPTKD]

I tested him yesterday! Then he took a nap! LOL....

 

[artFling]

And it is a rare, rare child indeed who can effectively defend themselves against an adult attacker, something that is traditionally associated with holding a black belt. Often, mom and dad really believe that their eight year old can defend themselves against an adult attacker.

And this is why I feel that giving them black belts is a disservice; it instills a false confidence.

Daniel

I agree with all that you say here and well said it is, yet I would like to add a note here. It's true that kiddie black belts are not really black belts. In fact, I've met older teens who earned their bb at a young age, who are no longer practicing, and they poo-poo the idea that they actually know anything. And rightly so.

On the other hand, when children actually get attacked, dragged into a car, etc, the thing that gets them dead is that they don't fight back. Even the untrained child who will fight back, who will bite, claw, punch, kick and scream, has a much greater chance of surviving. The vast majority, just sit there and let it happen, with no struggle. The fighters more often come out alive. In this scenario, even a sport trained martial artist and even an underbelt, has an even greater chance of survival than the untrained child, IF THEY WILL FIGHT. Most bad guys want an easy victim, not one who is going to punch them in the throat and kick them in the groin. And even a "lowly" gold belted child can do these things.

 

[TaeKwonDoKevin]

I have PERSONALLY witnessed 7-10 year old Black Belts that seemed they had NO clue. NOTHING there that looked like Black Belt material, NOTHING. They attend their own tournaments, so the kids have trophies.....Hey they gotta be good RIGHT? I know of a school that has produced MANY of these kids. EVERY PARENT that I have spoke to said, "and he/she work so hard for it". Perhaps they worked hard compared to playing video games, but it's NOT about hard work only. If the parents of these kids visit my class, they get funny looks on their faces. Before they leave they say, we will be back when our contract is up at Ninja Turtles McBelt Factory. They DO come back. Another sad part is, these parents are paying TOP $$$ for these so called classes.

 

[jks9199]

I agree with all that you say here and well said it is, yet I would like to add a note here. It's true that kiddie black belts are not really black belts. In fact, I've met older teens who earned their bb at a young age, who are no longer practicing, and they poo-poo the idea that they actually know anything. And rightly so.

On the other hand, when children actually get attacked, dragged into a car, etc, the thing that gets them dead is that they don't fight back. Even the untrained child who will fight back, who will bite, claw, punch, kick and scream, has a much greater chance of surviving. The vast majority, just sit there and let it happen, with no struggle. The fighters more often come out alive. In this scenario, even a sport trained martial artist and even an underbelt, has an even greater chance of survival than the untrained child, IF THEY WILL FIGHT. Most bad guys want an easy victim, not one who is going to punch them in the throat and kick them in the groin. And even a "lowly" gold belted child can do these things.

You have a valid point -- but it's not that easy.

Stranger abductions or even attacks (of any sort) on children are rather uncommon. And when they do occur, they often use any of a number of ruses or gambits to manipulate the kid. It's not even often as blatant as "little child, want some candy?" Kids need to be taught the realities of attacks on children, not to fear the "stranger" who is all too often a mythical creature about as real as a unicorn to a kid. Try it sometime; ask a kid (5 to 9 yoa) what a "stranger" is. You very possibly will find the answer enlightening and scary.

 

[mwd0818]

I agree with all that you say here and well said it is, yet I would like to add a note here. It's true that kiddie black belts are not really black belts. In fact, I've met older teens who earned their bb at a young age, who are no longer practicing, and they poo-poo the idea that they actually know anything. And rightly so.

On the other hand, when children actually get attacked, dragged into a car, etc, the thing that gets them dead is that they don't fight back. Even the untrained child who will fight back, who will bite, claw, punch, kick and scream, has a much greater chance of surviving. The vast majority, just sit there and let it happen, with no struggle. The fighters more often come out alive. In this scenario, even a sport trained martial artist and even an underbelt, has an even greater chance of survival than the untrained child, IF THEY WILL FIGHT. Most bad guys want an easy victim, not one who is going to punch them in the throat and kick them in the groin. And even a "lowly" gold belted child can do these things.

Funny enough . . . I tell everyone when talking about self-defense the same thing. You fight back, even untrained, you increase your odds of survival significantly. It's the complacency that in most cases causes issues. It's not 100%, but nothing is . . . Doesn't matter if your 7, 70, male, female, or child . . .

 

[Carol]

Nobody here disputes that. But one should not be awarded a BB for sports training alone. I think that USAT would do very well to look at how fencers are rated. They rate them as U (unrated) or E-A, A being the best and E being the least. Those ratings go up and down based on competition record, frequency, and who you compete against. An undefeated record against e-rated fencers, for example, will not get you an a-rating.

I actually think the opposite. I thnk we should reserve black belts (and other coloured belts) specifically for sports training.

Why?

Tradition. The Kyu/Dan system (which Korea adapted as the Gup/Dan system) originated in Tokugawan Japan as a ranking system for the game of Go. A beginning student would need to climb through 10 kyu (gradations) before they level up (literally!) to shodan.

In the late 1800s, Jigero Kano invented Judo, and referred to his top two students as "shodan" (lit. 'first level'). In the early 1900s, the yudansha (dan ranked) started wearing black belts, Kano then borrowed the Kyu ranks as well from Go and added first white and then colored belts for his mudansha (not dan ranked) students and *poof* the belt system was born.

Judo is a competitive sport. There absolutely are self defense applications to Judo but it is a sport. It makes sense that a sport adopted the ranking system from a competitive game.

Since then, there have been other martial arts systems that have adopted the belt system, based on Kano's success. But if you are not training to compete, then why use a rank system that the Japanese invented for a game?

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I actually think the opposite. I thnk we should reserve black belts (and other coloured belts) specifically for sports training.

Why?

Tradition. The Kyu/Dan system (which Korea adapted as the Gup/Dan system) originated in Tokugawan Japan as a ranking system for the game of Go. A beginning student would need to climb through 10 kyu (gradations) before they level up (literally!) to shodan.

In the late 1800s, Jigero Kano invented Judo, and referred to his top two students as "shodan" (lit. 'first level'). In the early 1900s, the yudansha (dan ranked) started wearing black belts, Kano then borrowed the Kyu ranks as well from Go and added first white and then colored belts for his mudansha (not dan ranked) students and *poof* the belt system was born.

Judo is a competitive sport. There absolutely are self defense applications to Judo but it is a sport. It makes sense that a sport adopted the ranking system from a competitive game.

Since then, there have been other martial arts systems that have adopted the belt system, based on Kano's success. But if you are not training to compete, then why use a rank system that the Japanese invented for a game?

I do not agree that the BB should be reserved for sport, but I think that your post is excellent, and your background on the belt system is spot on!

Daniel

 

[Gorilla]

I do not agree that the BB should be reserved for sport, but I think that your post is excellent, and your background on the belt system is spot on!

Daniel

Based on the theme of this thread and the input that we have gotten so far and your statement that TKD Practitionors that use the word "never" in regards to youth BLack Belts as hyperbole. Under what circumstance do you believe a Black Belt should be awarded to a Martial Artist under 10.

 

[Twin Fist]

for me, sinc ei dont take students under age 8, the answer is never to a 10 year old.

Based on the theme of this thread and the input that we have gotten so far and your statement that TKD Practitionors that use the word "never" in regards to youth BLack Belts as hyperbole. Under what circumstance do you believe a Black Belt should be awarded to a Martial Artist under 10.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Based on the theme of this thread and the input that we have gotten so far and your statement that TKD Practitionors that use the word "never" in regards to youth BLack Belts as hyperbole.

That is not what I was getting at. As my previous post was on the last page, here is what I said:

The difference is that the guy or gal who says "never" is usually speaking in hyperbole: "you never see Datsuns on the road anymore" means that the car are rare, so you generally will not see them. But I do see them once in a while.

On the other hand, the parents who think that their kids are prodigies are not speaking in hyperbole. Their are plenty of parents who really do believe that their kid who flails about wildly in some attempt at Koryo is flawlessly performing it. Most often, this is a combination of being blinded by parental pride and not knowing what they are looking at.

My point was that while most usually use the term hyperbolically with the unspoken understanding that their are exceptions, the parents of such kids usually think that their kid is the exception.

I am not talking about parents of kids who train at a sport only school and who's kids have documented competition records that demonstrate that they are superior for their age, size, and rank.

I am talking about the millions of kids in what amounts to karate daycare centers who never compete, often look like they are just flailing around in the general direction of the form, and who is no better equipped to defend themselves than they were before the class and who do not behave any better than they did before they took the class.

Under what circumstance do you believe a Black Belt should be awarded to a Martial Artist under 10.

This is my opinion regarding black belt standards for ten and under.

1. Crisp performance of each form with power and snap.
2. Ability to perform the techniques of the curriculum with power and snap, both solo, in step sparring, and in free sparring (to the extent that the sparring rules allow).
3. Mature enough that you would think that the kid is at least fifteen in the dojo.
4. The ability to "defend themselves" against an adult attacker. I do not mean the ability to beat an adult attacker. But to use their techniques in a way so as to escape or ward off an adult attacker. This should be demonstrated with an adult student or instructor standing in as the adult attacker and not just giving it up for the kid.
5. The ability to transmit technique to an underbelt of any age. I do not mean take the class by themselves. But if I go into a school as a white belt at age 42, a ten year old black belt should be able to demonstrate a turning kick, break down how to properly perform it, and tell me if I am doing it correctly, as well as give me pointers as to how to improve it.
6. Be able to spar at an adult black belt level in terms of execution when sparring kids their own age and should be able to at least handle themselves in sparring with an adult black belt student.
7. For breaking requirements, they need to break the same number and thickness of boards that the adult black belts do.

If that were the standard, there would be no need for a separate poom rank. Numbers four through seven would eliminate all but the most exceptional child.

All of the character and confidence building stuff can be done with patches and colored stripes on colored belts, and of course, good training for the students to help them succeed, an often overlooked element.

I have already addressed the fact that different schools have different requirements in previous posts. The above are the standards that I would adhere to if I owned the school.

Daniel

 

[Gorilla]

for me, sinc ei dont take students under age 8, the answer is never to a 10 year old.

Funny!!! I thought that Daniel's assumption that Masters who use "NEVER" in this regard are using Hyperbole did not apply in your case. What if an 8 year old walked in your Dojang with a BB(Poom) what criteria would you judge him and what would you do if he met those criteria? I very interested in your thoughts...

 

[Twin Fist]

ok, lets play what if.

say a 10 year old walks into my place and claims a poom rank

he is gonna have to show me his stuff.

thats goes one of two ways:

1) he is bruce lee jr. in that case, we wears a plain BB till he learns my system and tests for Jr BB, then gets a DAN belt at 16

2) he sucks like every other 10 yr old BB i have ever seen, in that case, he can put on a white belt. Like everyone else.

 

[Gorilla]

That is not what I was getting at. As my previous post was on the last page, here is what I said:



My point was that while most usually use the term hyperbolically with the unspoken understanding that their are exceptions, the parents of such kids usually think that their kid is the exception.

I am not talking about parents of kids who train at a sport only school and who's kids have documented competition records that demonstrate that they are superior for their age, size, and rank.

I am talking about the millions of kids in what amounts to karate daycare centers who never compete, often look like they are just flailing around in the general direction of the form, and who is no better equipped to defend themselves than they were before the class and who do not behave any better than they did before they took the class.



This is my opinion regarding black belt standards for ten and under.

1. Crisp performance of each form with power and snap.
2. Ability to perform the techniques of the curriculum with power and snap, both solo, in step sparring, and in free sparring (to the extent that the sparring rules allow).
3. Mature enough that you would think that the kid is at least fifteen in the dojo.
4. The ability to "defend themselves" against an adult attacker. I do not mean the ability to beat an adult attacker. But to use their techniques in a way so as to escape or ward off an adult attacker. This should be demonstrated with an adult student or instructor standing in as the adult attacker and not just giving it up for the kid.
5. The ability to transmit technique to an underbelt of any age. I do not mean take the class by themselves. But if I go into a school as a white belt at age 42, a ten year old black belt should be able to demonstrate a turning kick, break down how to properly perform it, and tell me if I am doing it correctly, as well as give me pointers as to how to improve it.
6. Be able to spar at an adult black belt level in terms of execution when sparring kids their own age and should be able to at least handle themselves in sparring with an adult black belt student.
7. For breaking requirements, they need to break the same number and thickness of boards that the adult black belts do.

If that were the standard, there would be no need for a separate poom rank. Numbers four through seven would eliminate all but the most exceptional child.

All of the character and confidence building stuff can be done with patches and colored stripes on colored belts, and of course, good training for the students to help them succeed, an often overlooked element.

I have already addressed the fact that different schools have different requirements in previous posts. The above are the standards that I would adhere to if I owned the school.

Daniel

That is the best set of standards that I have seen...