Youth Black Belts

[jks9199]

Actually not true. Shaolin arts began as breathing exercises and yoga, which evolved into fighgting. Those fighting arts were used as a defense only system from the monks and killing was only the last resort.

Not exactly accurate.

My understanding is that the temples were sanctuaries for lots of people... including soldiers and generals who had fallen out of favor. By going to the monastery or temple, they stepped off the public stage... Thus, there were often lots of people there with real fighting experience and knowledge. If there's any truth to the myth about breathing exercises being introduced with Buddhism, they probably were more of a yoga than martial arts, and may have contributed to the internal side of the Chinese martial arts.

 

[shesulsa]

i have no interest in or respect for sport only schools.

You don't seem to have a lot of respect for anything other than that which YOU find valuable ... which means you "ain't" a martial artist.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

the thing is, person might get into TKD to do the sport side of it.

thats fine, not for me, but thats fine.

but the thing is, they shouldnt get rank, not in TKD.

If they are in it for sport and do nothing but compete, then I agree.

If they meet the full organizational requirements for whatever rank they hold (proficiency in forms, whatever SD curriculum is taught, etc.) then I have no problem with them holding the rank.

If the school is promoting people who do not meet the requirements for the rank just because of tournament participation, then I do have a problem with that.

As an aside, I recall hearing somewhere that some early on had wanted to call the sport side of it Tae Soo Do, but that was ultimately not done.

TKD is about self defense

it is not a sport

it is not so little johnny can feel good about himself

it is about the systematic and remorseless destruction of another human being.

everything else is a fringe benefit

the character building? the self control? fringe benefits

To be fair, the Kukkiwon structured and promoted taekwondo as a martial sport very strongly, so certainly there is room for that definition, though as long as one is calling what they do taekwondo, they should have self defense at the core.

I will disagree about the character building. Taekwondo is a 'do', as opposed to a jutsu or a bup (I believe that that is the Korean equivalent of 'jutsu'). As such, personal developement is a core part of the art.

and when someone claims their sport "black belt" is the equal to my TKD black belt, i get a little annoyed.

This comes down to people not understanding that rank only has substantive meaning within the school where it was issued. And equal can be a relative term as well. It may be "equal" in that the person may have worked just as hard to get his or her first dan and may be as superb in the ring as you are in SD. Thus they are quantitatively equal, but not qualitatively equal.

10 year olds? they aint black belts

I feel that it is a disservice to put a black belt on a 'tween or a child, and even some young teens. Yes, there are exceptions, but 99% the student is being shortchanged. Also, even with the broadening and undermining of what a black belt traditionally represents, in the back of everyone's mind, a black belt is supposed to be able to fight. That includes the wearers of kiddie belts. When a young kid who has a black belt advertises it at school and then finds that he still is getting pounded by the bullies, all of the self confidence that was built up in the dojo is gone and the kid is even less confident than before. Not to mention the outrageous amount of money that most commercial schools ask for a blackbelt testing.

Self confidence and character building are best done with colored belts and patches.

2 year black belts? they aint black belts

I tend to not want to generalize in that. I would rather see it broken down into study hours rather than years. If I go to class once a week and not practice outside of class for four years, I still go less than a guy who goes to class three times a week and practices between classes for two years.

Also, the curriculum at different schools varies enough that I am hesitant to make a judgement bases exclusively on years. If a school teaches only the base Kukkiwon curriculum, for example, two years is pretty ample if the student is practicing and going to class three times a week.

That would not make them equal in quality or quantity to a school like your own or Miguksaram's; that would make them a black belt in their own school by virtue of having learned and become proficient in the curriculum of that school.

Daniel

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

No..TKD emcompasses all aspects of martial arts including sport. Now someone may choose to focus solely on the sport aspect of TKD and find the forms and other areas a neccessary evil to achieve what they want out of TKD. Not everyone joins for just self defense.

So long as they follow the full curriculum and are proficent in it, I see no problem with them holding rank.

But

if the school trains in nothing other than sport, then it is a bit like a car built entirely for drag racing (I am talking rails and funny cars, not hot rodded street cars).

Such a car is useless off of the dragstrip, and cannot be used competatively on any race track other than the dragstrip. Such a car will lose to any other car if the race has any turns after the first quarter mile. Such a car cannot be "ranked" as a sports car and is not effective on the street. It is very effective at one thing only.

Now, there is nothing wrong with drag racing. Nothing wrong with sport taekwondo or sport karate. But if you train for nothing other than to win competitions, you are not getting the whole of the art and, in my opinion, should not be ranked as if you are.

Daniel

 

[terryl965]

Well Well Well, we have taken that turn for the worst in TKD. The sport versus the actual Art. What can be said but this the sport has alot of valueable aspect to it that traditional TKD does not, Traditional TKD has alot of value that the sport will never have. If I was to put a true sport competitor on the matt with a traditionalist TKD person they will fall harder than a brick off a ten story building, but if I take a traditionalist TKD person and put him in the ring with a sport person with the rules of engagement they will even fall harder.

What does these means to us one is no better than the other in there enviroment, but if I can teach the sport person how to defend on the ground and how to use there hands they can become jst as deadly as all others. On the other side of the coin if I take a tradionalist TKD and tought him the rules and how to fight inside a square ring he would still get his *** handed to them. One that has been a traditionalist person cannot and should not learn the game, but the one that has learn the game first can and should be able to adapt to a real SD type stituation when probaly tought.


Since I teach both I know the sport can be and will adapt, but the SD person will never be able to play tag with kicks and never use there hands. Just an observation I have made over the years. I know some traditionalist peole have crossed over but to be honest they where in the sport of Karate and Kung Fu so it was just redirecting the rules.

 

[Jphtkd]

This thread is epic...

Taekwondo is the best style ever and can defeat all others. Discuss.

 

[TKD_Father]

This thread is epic...

What did these guys talk about before I showed up? You really have to go back a ways to find anything close to this many replies.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

What did these guys talk about before I showed up? You really have to go back a ways to find anything close to this many replies.

I told you that this is a hot topic.

Daniel

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

This thread is epic...

Taekwondo is the best style ever and can defeat all others. Discuss.

Taekwondo is like Starbucks: there is a school on every corner so nobody else can get into the game. TKD wins.

Daniel

 

[Jphtkd]

What did these guys talk about before I showed up? You really have to go back a ways to find anything close to this many replies.

That is because all of these topics have been beaten to death several times. All the big ones were touched upon without having to open more than one browser screen lol.

 

[Jphtkd]

Taekwondo is like Starbucks: there is a school on every corner so nobody else can get into the game. TKD wins.

Daniel

At least with starbucks you know that you are getting the same quality as every other store...

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

At least with starbucks you know that you are getting the same quality as every other store...

Yes. Low. Of course I am a coffee snob, lol.

Daniel

 

[Jphtkd]

When I lived in California I went to starbucks, but I moved to Fl. a year ago and switched to Dunkin Donuts coffee. I say we hijack this thread Billy the kid style and discuss different coffee brands. Go.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Caribou Coffee's Kenya AA. Light roast, high kick, and a taste to please the snob in me. It also doubled in price due to armed conflict in Kenya.

Daniel

 

[jim777]

If you buy the Starbucks beans and grind/brew it at home yourself, it is FAR better than what you get in the stores. I would hate to give up my Starbucks French Roast, I've had it every day since...maybe '98? 2 pound bags at Costco for the win

 

[mwd0818]

Costco is good . . .

Anyone around Louisville, KY I can tell you where the best cappuccinos outside of Europe are . . .

And if you need a helping of 7 year old Black Belts in TKD, I can point you in that direction too . . .

(Just keeping it relevant . . . )

 

[Twin Fist]

You don't seem to have a lot of respect for anything other than that which YOU find valuable ... which means you "ain't" a martial artist.

no Georgia, i have no respect for dishonesty

claiming someone that only learns sport is the equal to someone that learns SD is dishonest

a sport school BB is NOT equal to a real school BB

now a school that teaches both, i have no problem with.

 

[terryl965]

Here is something to think about, when I started to teach sport TKD it was hard as hell because my school was about S.D. for the first 4-5 year we got so mnay penalty for kicking to hard and punching in the head, I remember the Junior safety rules. We used to get dis-qualified for hitting to hard in the head or body it got so bad one year I told all my players if you get dis-qualified for kicking to hard I would come home and make six foot tall trophies, that year I made seven of them.

What this does is let everyone know here that the sport is hard for us traditional guys and it players, I tell all my parent even though we teach sport for the kids wanting it, we rely on S.D, type principle first and foremost. We do take the time to seperate the classes for those really wanting sport but we make sure they understand it is a game and not for real life self Defense.

 

[ATC]

Here is something to think about, when I started to teach sport TKD it was hard as hell because my school was about S.D. for the first 4-5 year we got so mnay penalty for kicking to hard and punching in the head, I remember the Junior safety rules. We used to get dis-qualified for hitting to hard in the head or body it got so bad one year I told all my players if you get dis-qualified for kicking to hard I would come home and make six foot tall trophies, that year I made seven of them.

What this does is let everyone know here that the sport is hard for us traditional guys and it players, I tell all my parent even though we teach sport for the kids wanting it, we rely on S.D, type principle first and foremost. We do take the time to seperate the classes for those really wanting sport but we make sure they understand it is a game and not for real life self Defense.

Funny you say that Terry. I tell my kids all the time that it is OK to lose, just make sure the other person can't fight the next match. They do not penalize for hard hits to the body anymore, only the head (Jr. Safety rules).

One time my son was getting cheated (points not being awarded) so I told him to knock his competitor out. I said let him try to explain his win by getting KO'd. My son did not KO him but the kid left the match pretty beat up.

 

[Gorilla]

Lots of opinions about Youth Black Belts...What did I come away with!!! A Black Belt is in the eye of the beholder. We are all quick to judge others and never really look at ourselves in the mirror. Self Defense and Sport are two different things both with merits!!! When someone says "never" in matters such as these they are usually wrong. There always the exception the prodigy. Finally most parents think the their kids are the exception the prodigy and like the guy who says "never" they are usually wrong. I hope that everyone enjoyed this thread as much as I did.

Gorilla TKD Addict