Yip Man - Yuen Kai San realtion

[Vajramusti]

Sorry- you are not reading very well, The senior IM folks ina public rebuke were rejectiing-not the issue of Leung Bik's existence but Cheung's version of "real" wing chun from Leung Bik. Cheung claimed he was the inheritor-thats what the IM folks rejected. You may want to keep your eye on the ball- but I dont think that will happen. Jiu Wan, WSL, Mak's sifu, TST and HKM have not questioned IM's statement of his post Chan Wah Sun development. Per tradition , IM listed his first teacher as his sifu.And in the hK mag article he mentioned who is later teacher was- Leung Bik.If you knew thed etails of IM's footwork whould see that it is vastly better than Chan Wah Sun. Again, Ip ching has the 3 books that Leung Bik gave him. Thre is more info-but-
I am not really interested in debating with you.

 

[KPM]

I'm not reading well Joy? Excuse me. You said Cheung's story was minor. It was not. It had a significant impact. I never said that the seniors didn't deny Cheung's assertions but not the Leung Bik story. What I said was that the reason so many people seem to question the Leung Bik story (meaning people posting on forums and talking on the internet....which most of the senior IM folk do NOT do) is because the whole story became discredited by William Cheung's claims. Is that so hard to follow? And just how do you know what Chan Wah Shun's footwork was like? You've turned a simple assertion on my part into a debate so far, so why are you now afraid to share any additional information you might have? Makes me think that you don't really have anything significant to say and are just saying that to come off all knowledgeable. And I will say...again...that just because Ip Ching may have books supposedly written by Leung Bik does NOT mean that Leung Bik was not a cover name for someone else....like Fung Wah. Fung Wah may very well have written them and signed his nickname to them to preserve his anonymity.

 

[dlcox]

Perhaps Mr. Simmons can add some clarification into Liang Zan's "adopted sons" (Disciples) if he is willing

I wam happy to answer what ever questions I can with out causing issues. Lo Kwai was Leung Jan Knife man and was LJ second when LJ had encounters. He formalized the knives with LJ. He liked and shared his Knife form with Fung Wah. I can see our knife work in some of the knife forms in YM wing chun. Problem is there is such variety inY M wing chun. My Si Pak ( I think that is the right term) is really the person to talk to . He has YM background and was taught all of our knife techniques by late master Chao Ng Kwai.

Hi John thanks for replying. I noticed you made mention that Lo Kwai was also referred to as Leung Kwai. Does that disciple list of Leung Jan also list who Leung Bik was? Also I have heard that Lo Kwai was a master of some Iron Finger art prior to studies in Wing Chun. My question would be what is that art called and was it the source of his knife work?

 

[kung fu fighter]

Some Yip Man WC contains our signatures so we know YM WC has ties to LJ.

Who's version of Yip Man wing chun contains your Lo Kwai LJ signatures and knife work?

 

[Kwan Sau]

...Also I have heard that Lo Kwai was a master of some Iron Finger art prior to studies in Wing Chun. My question would be what is that art called and was it the source of his knife work?

This is interesting. Looking forward to reading the responses.

 

[Kwan Sau]

Who's version of Yip Man wing chun contains your Lo Kwai LJ signatures and knife work?

Hmmm. Question: how big is a signature? Is it something overt or more sublime? Are there more than one? Fascinating discussion gents!

 

[KPM]

I think an equally interesting question is how does Joy know what Chan Wah Shun's footwork was like? Or is that part of the "more info" that he is unwilling to share?

 

[zuti car]

I think an equally interesting question is how does Joy know what Chan Wah Shun's footwork was like? Or is that part of the "more info" that he is unwilling to share?

I particulary like these kind of things when people claim they possess some knowledge but they are unwilling to share it .I like more only one thing ,"underground , secret fights" that all grandmaster won without loosing any .

 

[Marnetmar]

It's probably safe to assume to say that CWS used triangular footwork since Pan Nam's WC seems to be based primarily on CWS's.

 

[KPM]

Still an assumption though. Pan Nam had multiple influences and his own innovations as well.

 

[zuti car]

Still an assumption though. Pan Nam had multiple influences and his own innovations as well.

Pan Nam learned from Yip Man as well . Yip Man corrected his forms , or something connected with empty hand forms , i cannot remember it well

 

[JPinAZ]

-------------------------------------------------------------
Cheung's story is a minor one.Cheung did not begin his stories till after IM's death.Others knew about IM's relationship with LB before that.
Ip man himself in a HK magazine interview talked about Leung Bik.
IM man had 3 books by Leung Bik. Ip Ching has them. I have seen one of them. Someone took HKM's copies.
Strange obsession with claims that Ip Man lied. Strange levels of jealousy!!

Yes, my first sifu has had several in-person conversations with both of the Ip brothers, Moy Yat, CST, etc and they have all affirmed the LB story and that he was a 'real person' (whether it was a knickname or not) - as well as confirming the existence of the books you've mentioned. Being the closest to Ip Man, if all say he was a real person and also affirm that Ip Man did indeed learn from him (as told to them by Ip Man himself), I can't understand why anyone would chose to believe otherwise - unless out of jealousy or personal gain.

 

[geezer]

I think an equally interesting question is how does Joy know what Chan Wah Shun's footwork was like? Or is that part of the "more info" that he is unwilling to share?

I get the impression that Joy says the he "isn't interested in debating with you" not because he's keeping "secrets", but rather because he gets tired of all the endless, pointless arguing and frankly just ....isn't interested in debating with you (or anybody else)!

I mean, honestly KPM, will we ever really know if Leung Bic, or someone else, was the later influence on Yip Man, or if Shakespeare really authored his attributed work, ...or if there was a second shooter on the grassy knoll, ...or if the US actually blew up the World Trade Center as an excuse to go to war, ...or if we all need to wear tinfoil hats to keep aliens from reading our minds, ....or.....

Personally, I'll settle for the Leung Bic story as related by GM Yip until solid evidence to the contrary can be presented. And William Cheung's outrageous claims do nothing to discredit that version.

 

[KPM]

I get the impression that Joy says the he "isn't interested in debating with you" not because he's keeping "secrets", but rather because he gets tired of all the endless, pointless arguing and frankly just ....isn't interested in debating with you (or anybody else)!

---That would be a fair enough assessment Steve. But the fact is I made a simple assertion that William Cheung's version of the Leung Bik story is what has discredited the entire Leung Bik story for a lot of people. Joy chose to turn that simple assertion into a debate and then signed off of that debate with saying he had more info but wasn't going to share it because he didn't want to get into a debate. Don't you think that's just a bit off? Don't you think he could have just said "you make some good points but I don't entirely agree"? But no, he wants to come off all knowledgeable, being the authority, whether he as any real information to share or not.


I mean, honestly KPM, will we ever really know if Leung Bic, or someone else, was the later influence on Yip Man, or if Shakespeare really authored his attributed work, ...or if there was a second shooter on the grassy knoll, ...or if the US actually blew up the World Trade Center as an excuse to go to war, ...or if we all need to wear tinfoil hats to keep aliens from reading our minds, ....or.....

---No we won't. And I've said as much in the past here. But I do think that William Cheung's retelling of the story as a way to give legitimacy to his version of Wing Chun, as a way to try and say he should be "grandmaster" of all Ip Man lineages, and to say that his method is the "real" thing and everything else is "modified"......a story that was written up for an international magazine that was widely read....a story that has been retold to thousands of people within his organization and that gets repeated still....this was not "minor" and had a big influence on how people view the whole Leung Bik story today. That we CAN know! That was what Joy was denying.


Personally, I'll settle for the Leung Bic story as related by GM Yip until solid evidence to the contrary can be presented. And William Cheung's outrageous claims do nothing to discredit that version.

---For you! But you don't think it has been a big influence on a lot of people? I still think that if not for William Cheung, that Leung Bik would likely have been forgotten long ago.

 

[zuti car]

I I still think that if not for William Cheung, that Leung Bik would likely have been forgotten long ago.

I agree , without william , no one would pay any attention on leung bik

 

[geezer]

I agree , without william , no one would pay any attention on leung bik

Well, before William Cheung made up that story, my old sifu was implying that his Wing Tsun was the best because Grandmaster Yip had privately emphasized to him aspects of his WC that reflected Leung Bik's contribution. So Cheung wasn't the first or the last to milk that cash cow! Heck I tell that one to my students. It's almost as good a story as the Ng Mui - Yim Wing Chun fable.

 

[KPM]

Well, before William Cheung made up that story, my old sifu was implying that his Wing Tsun was the best because Grandmaster Yip had privately emphasized to him aspects of his WC that reflected Leung Bik's contribution. So Cheung wasn't the first or the last to milk that cash cow! Heck I tell that one to my students. It's almost as good a story as the Ng Mui - Yim Wing Chun fable.

Yet another reason to question the whole validity of the Leung Bik story! ;-)

 

[geezer]

Yet another reason to question the whole validity of the Leung Bik story! ;-)

Here's the deal in a nutshell: Throughout his lifetime, GM Yip Man made a lot of adjustments and refinements to the original system he learned as a youth from Chan Wah Shun and Ng Chun So. In traditional Chinese culture it would not be considered proper to brag about making such changes, so the most descrete solution would be to attribute them to this personage of "Leung Bik".

Now Leung Bik may well have actually existed and indeed may have tutored the young Yip Man. Or he may have been a contrivance. The truth will never be known. So I accept the story as a way of acknowledging that GM Yip's Wing Chun developed certain unique qualities that might not be apparent in some other lineages.

For me the name "Leung Bik" becomes associated with the most sophisticated elements of Yip Man's art ....the stuff that a refined, older fighter would use to easily control a brash young man. In this sense, I feel the story takes on a special validity. That's why it really is a good story, and why I re-tell it to my students just like the fables of Ng Mui and Yim Wing Chun, or Wong Wah Bo and Leung Yee Tai. We may not be able to verify them historically, but they do encapsulate a deeper truth about the practice of this art at it's most sophisticated level.

 

[Vajramusti]

Here's the deal in a nutshell: Throughout his lifetime, GM Yip Man made a lot of adjustments and refinements to the original system he learned as a youth from Chan Wah Shun and Ng Chun So. In traditional Chinese culture it would not be considered proper to brag about making such changes, so the most descrete solution would be to attribute them to this personage of "Leung Bik".

Now Leung Bik may well have actually existed and indeed may have tutored the young Yip Man. Or he may have been a contrivance. The truth will never be known. So I accept the story as a way of acknowledging that GM Yip's Wing Chun developed certain unique qualities that might not be apparent in some other lineages.

For me the name "Leung Bik" becomes associated with the most sophisticated elements of Yip Man's art ....the stuff that a refined, older fighter would use to easily control a brash young man. In this sense, I feel the story takes on a special validity. That's why it really is a good story, and why I re-tell it to my students just like the fables of Ng Mui and Yim Wing Chun, or Wong Wah Bo and Leung Yee Tai. We may not be able to verify them historically, but they do encapsulate a deeper truth about the practice of this art at it's most sophisticated level.

 

[Vajramusti]

Ip Man's mature wing chun was indeed superior to anything else around.
Questioning his own explanation of his evolution is pointless. People have been piggy backing on his achievements.
Most people who claim they have learned from him were with him 1 to 3 years
and learned irregularly.
Before memories fade- Sigung Ho Kam ming was with him daily in his intense period of learning and then met with him often even upto the day Ip man's death. But HKM now is 90 years old and his teaching days are over.
While Ip Man had good hands- his feet before his decline were amazing...
according to HKM.