Yip Man - Yuen Kai San realtion

[dlcox]

A little more info into the story......I was told that Ye Wen referred to Fang Hua as Liang Bi out of respect for his want of privacy. Fang Hua was a very private person and did not want any publicity for himself or his family. He has living relatives to this day, during Ye Wen's time these individuals would have been exposed to seekers looking for details. So the full story of Fang Hua was never made public. Calling him by his nickname would make people assume he was a blood relative of the Liang family and not seek out the Fang family.

I can find no good reason to doubt the legitimacy of this story as told to me by my Shigong. It is not embellished with grand tales of heroism or magnificent conquests. Just a story about who Liang Bi really was. I have no documentation to verify any of it, but then again there is none to discredit it either. For me it is a believable and logical story and until it can, without a shadow of doubt, be proved otherwise, I will accept it as true.

Perhaps Mr. Simmons can add some clarification into Liang Zan's "adopted sons" (Disciples) if he is willing.

 

[futsaowingchun]

I agree. I think Leung Bik was likely a cover story for a number of influences on Ip Man. From Yuen Kay Shan to the Weng Chun guys at Dai Duk Lan to a possible Fung Wah as mentioned. Ip Man had a passion for Wing Chun (like a lot of us) and likely would have sought out and investigated as much Wing Chun as possible (like a lot of us). But back in those days it wasn't as acceptable to depart from your primary Sifu as in is in modern days. People noticed that his Wing Chun being taught in Hong Kong has evolved and was different from what he taught in Foshan. Rather than disrespect his lineage by saying he had learned things from people outside of the family, he attributed his new knowledge to a Kung Fu uncle...Leung Bik. Perfect cover story to save face amongst his lineage family and to avoid giving kudos to people outside the family.

excellent ...I believe this is exactly what happend. it makes perfect sense.

 

[dlcox]

I agree. I think Leung Bik was likely a cover story for a number of influences on Ip Man. From Yuen Kay Shan to the Weng Chun guys at Dai Duk Lan to a possible Fung Wah as mentioned. Ip Man had a passion for Wing Chun (like a lot of us) and likely would have sought out and investigated as much Wing Chun as possible (like a lot of us). But back in those days it wasn't as acceptable to depart from your primary Sifu as in is in modern days. People noticed that his Wing Chun being taught in Hong Kong has evolved and was different from what he taught in Foshan. Rather than disrespect his lineage by saying he had learned things from people outside of the family, he attributed his new knowledge to a Kung Fu uncle...Leung Bik. Perfect cover story to save face amongst his lineage family and to avoid giving kudos to people outside the family.

It very well could be this scenario, but lets look at it a little closer. Lets assume Fang Hua was actually Liang Bi and became a mentor to Ye Wen. It is well known that Ye Wen hung out and talked "shop" with several Yongchun practitioners, namely Ruan Qi Shan and Yu Cai. After all they were known as the "Three Heroes of Yongchun". He also hung out at Da Du Lan, which was an institute set up by Wai Yan as a means to research the art of Yongchun. He invited the best Yongchun practitioners of the day to train, share, develop and research without holding anything back from one another.

I beget to ask. Why does it have to be that all these different individuals had a profound influence on Ye Wen, so much so that he had to create a teacher, but he is not an influence on them. To me this doesn't make sense, Ye Wen was one of the "Three Heroes" and considered a prominent master by others such as Wai Yan. Didn't he influence them at all? It is true that Ye Wen's art is not drastically different from Ruan family, but why should it be, they come from the same lineage. What I see of Liang Bi's influence on Ye Wen is refinement. Undoubtedly he was influenced by others and I'm sure that some of those influences were implemented. Has anyone ever considered that perhaps Ruan family style is similar to Ye Wen's because he had influenced them? Why is it such a tough pill to swallow to consider that Liang Bi (Fang Hua) was real and had actually helped Ye Wen further refine his art more so than anyone else?

 

[zuti car]

\. To be honest I think a lot of the animosity towards Ye Wen is simply jealousy. These controversies didn't really exist when he was alive. After Ye Wen's death the popularity of Yongchun exploded and many have tried, or still are trying, to usurp his throne and claim the popularity title for themselves, by denouncing the legitimacy of his teacher, all the while adding there own suspect history to the fold and claiming it as legit.

I agree , jealousy is of of the reasons why so many people are trying do denounce Yip man and his art and, yes, there was not animosity while he was alive . We have to be aware of some other things , during his life ,Yip Mans just one of many wing chun teachers in HK , he was not famous , nor his art was considered superior or ,the only wing chun there is. After his death , he and his style became very popular , but popularity has nothing to do with the quality of his system or some superiority of his lineage but has everything with Bruce Lee . After kung fu craze spread all over the world everyone with even remote connection to Yip Man capitalized immensely , while other styles and other teacher stayed in shadow . All people from Yip Man's lineage gave their best to convince the world that they are the only or the best . It normal that people from other styles feel the way they feel , some of them from pure jealousy but also many of them because of Yip Man's follows behavior

 

[dlcox]

I agree , jealousy is of of the reasons why so many people are trying do denounce Yip man and his art and, yes, there was not animosity while he was alive . We have to be aware of some other things , during his life ,Yip Mans just one of many wing chun teachers in HK , he was not famous , nor his art was considered superior or ,the only wing chun there is. After his death , he and his style became very popular , but popularity has nothing to do with the quality of his system or some superiority of his lineage but has everything with Bruce Lee . After kung fu craze spread all over the world everyone with even remote connection to Yip Man capitalized immensely , while other styles and other teacher stayed in shadow . All people from Yip Man's lineage gave their best to convince the world that they are the only or the best . It normal that people from other styles feel the way they feel , some of them from pure jealousy but also many of them because of Yip Man's follows behavior

Hi Zuti,

I absolutely agree, with one exception, though he may not have been famous he was held in high regard by his peers. The rest is spot on and has to be taken into consideration when looking back. Especially the jealousy part, look at how many branches of Yongchun came out of the woodwork during the boom. Many using tales of magnificent histories and heroic escapades of past ancestors while claiming to be the original method with all the secrets as a means of crawling out of Ye Wen's shadow.

I wonder if Bruce Lee would of never became famous, would there be as many obscure branches of the art as there are, or would they just be known as some local village Hong Men style?

 

[KPM]

I beget to ask. Why does it have to be that all these different individuals had a profound influence on Ye Wen, so much so that he had to create a teacher, but he is not an influence on them. To me this doesn't make sense, Ye Wen was one of the "Three Heroes" and considered a prominent master by others such as Wai Yan. Didn't he influence them at all? It is true that Ye Wen's art is not drastically different from Ruan family, but why should it be, they come from the same lineage. What I see of Liang Bi's influence on Ye Wen is refinement. Undoubtedly he was influenced by others and I'm sure that some of those influences were implemented. Has anyone ever considered that perhaps Ruan family style is similar to Ye Wen's because he had influenced them? Why is it such a tough pill to swallow to consider that Liang Bi (Fang Hua) was real and had actually helped Ye Wen further refine his art more so than anyone else?

The story of Fung Wah being the legendary "Leung Bik" seems very plausible. But that is a relatively recent idea to emerge and you seem to know more about it than anyone. But there was a poster over in the "other forum" that said the same thing. So maybe it all is just a matter of Fung Wah giving Ip Man some refinements and deeper knowledge and being the main "outside" influence on Ip Man. With the different Wing Chun "researchers" out there traveling around the world and checking things out it does somewhat surprise me that none of them have tracked down members of Fung Wah's family to see if they could verify this. As far as Ip Man influencing the others....sure its possible. But he was the junior guy in almost every group.

 

[dlcox]

The story of Fung Wah being the legendary "Leung Bik" seems very plausible. But that is a relatively recent idea to emerge and you seem to know more about it than anyone. But there was a poster over in the "other forum" that said the same thing. So maybe it all is just a matter of Fung Wah giving Ip Man some refinements and deeper knowledge and being the main "outside" influence on Ip Man. With the different Wing Chun "researchers" out there traveling around the world and checking things out it does somewhat surprise me that none of them have tracked down members of Fung Wah's family to see if they could verify this. As far as Ip Man influencing the others....sure its possible. But he was the junior guy in almost every group.

I don't think that any of Fang's relations care. From what I understand it's only a couple of people, old now. Since none of them has ever publically confirmed the story, no one has bothered to look further. Most of this era in question and one generation after are deceased, we will probably never know for sure.

Just because he was junior to most doesn't mean he wasn't respected or considered an authority on the art by his peers.

I've found in my experience, that people don't talk smack when a person is around out of fear of a whooping. Only when that person isn't around anymore does the smack talk begin. Ye Wen earned his place through his efforts, not through lineage claims. Lots of other branches claim patronage to obscure and unverifiable ancestors, yet I see no one debating them with the same convictions as the Liang Bi controversy, why? Some of these other claims are outright ridiculous when compared to Liang Bi.

 

[zuti car]

Hi Zuti,


I wonder if Bruce Lee would of never became famous, would there be as many obscure branches of the art as there are, or would they just be known as some local village Hong Men style?

Without Bruce Lee wing chun today would be totally unknown to the world, like many of the white crane styles here on taiwan ,almost every village has some unique , old crane style , but no one knows about them and they are only practiced by small number of locals .

 

[KPM]

Lots of other branches claim patronage to obscure and unverifiable ancestors, yet I see no one debating them with the same convictions as the Liang Bi controversy, why? Some of these other claims are outright ridiculous when compared to Liang Bi.

Good point. I think this may primarily be because of how William Cheung used the whole Leung Bik story to give legitimacy to his TWC. The way he tells the story it just doesn't add up at all. So that has tainted the whole idea of a Leung Bik connection. But like I said, this whole idea of Fung Wah being nick-named Leung Bik and being an "adopted" son of Leung Jan is relatively new on the scene and seems more plausible. This would explain why no one has ever found any historical record of an actual Leung Bik, no gravesite, no nothing.

 

[dlcox]

Good point. I think this may primarily be because of how William Cheung used the whole Leung Bik story to give legitimacy to his TWC. The way he tells the story it just doesn't add up at all. So that has tainted the whole idea of a Leung Bik connection. But like I said, this whole idea of Fung Wah being nick-named Leung Bik and being an "adopted" son of Leung Jan is relatively new on the scene and seems more plausible. This would explain why no one has ever found any historical record of an actual Leung Bik, no gravesite, no nothing.

I agree. It will be interesting if anyone in Hong Kong or with a Hong Kong connection can reveal more about this.

 

[Vajramusti]

Good point. I think this may primarily be because of how William Cheung used the whole Leung Bik story to give legitimacy to his TWC. The way he tells the story it just doesn't add up at all. So that has tainted the whole idea of a Leung Bik connection. But like I said, this whole idea of Fung Wah being nick-named Leung Bik and being an "adopted" son of Leung Jan is relatively new on the scene and seems more plausible. This would explain why no one has ever found any historical record of an actual Leung Bik, no gravesite, no nothing.

 

[Vajramusti]

C'mon- other than Cheung's disciples-folks generally do not give much credence to Cheung's stories.

 

[KPM]

C'mon- other than Cheung's disciples-folks generally do not give much credence to Cheung's stories.

Exactly! And since Leung Bik was a huge part of Cheung's stories, the Leung Bik story in general is discredited.

 

[johnsimmons]

Perhaps Mr. Simmons can add some clarification into Liang Zan's "adopted sons" (Disciples) if he is willing

I wam happy to answer what ever questions I can with out causing issues. Lo Kwai was Leung Jan Knife man and was LJ second when LJ had encounters. He formalized the knives with LJ. He liked and shared his Knife form with Fung Wah. I can see our knife work in some of the knife forms in YM wing chun. Problem is there is such variety inY M wing chun. My Si Pak ( I think that is the right term) is really the person to talk to . He has YM background and was taught all of our knife techniques by late master Chao Ng Kwai.

 

[Vajramusti]

Exactly! And since Leung Bik was a huge part of Cheung's stories, the Leung Bik story in general is discredited.

-------------------------------------------------------------
Cheung's story is a minor one.Cheung did not begin his stories till after IM's death.Others knew about IM's relationship with LB before that.
Ip man himself in a HK magazine interview talked about Leung Bik.
IM man had 3 books by Leung Bik. Ip Ching has them. I have seen one of them. Someone took HKM's copies.
Strange obsession with claims that Ip Man lied. Strange levels of jealousy!!

 

[KPM]

You seem to miss the point Joy. Cheung's story was not minor. He used it to promote himself and his organization and HE is the one that retold the Leung Bik story widely and in print outside of Hong Kong. Probably 1000x more people at the very least are aware of the Leung Bik story because of Cheung than were aware of it before Cheung. I wouldn't call that "minor." But it matters not what was known before. The fact is that the story has become discredited in current times due to Cheung's version. That was the point. And nothing else you said precludes the idea that "Leung Bik" was simply a code name or nickname for someone else. And.....we have MANY instances in Chinese Martial Art circles were stories are not exactly historically accurate. If you want to call it "lying", you go right ahead. That kind of "lying" was certainly very very common!

 

[Vajramusti]

You seem to miss the point Joy. Cheung's story was not minor. He used it to promote himself and his organization and HE is the one that retold the Leung Bik story widely and in print outside of Hong Kong. Probably 1000x more people at the very least are aware of the Leung Bik story because of Cheung than were aware of it before Cheung. I wouldn't call that "minor." But it matters not what was known before. The fact is that the story has become discredited in current times due to Cheung's version. That was the point. And nothing else you said precludes the idea that "Leung Bik" was simply a code name or nickname for someone else. And.....we have MANY instances in Chinese Martial Art circles were stories are not exactly historically accurate. If you want to call it "lying", you go right ahead. That kind of "lying" was certainly very very common!

 

[Vajramusti]

NONE of the major well known students of Ip Man paid and or pay much attention to William Cheung's "histories". They went about doing IM wing chun.
Social media chit chat was not and is not part of that world....Folks vested in YKS and current Ku lo loyalties notwithstanding.

 

[KPM]

NONE of the major well known students of Ip Man paid and or pay much attention to William Cheung's "histories". They went about doing IM wing chun.
Social media chit chat was not and is not part of that world....Folks vested in YKS and current Ku lo loyalties notwithstanding.

Really? And just where have you been for the last 2 decades Joy? ;-) William Cheung published that story in Inside Kung Fu magazine in the 80's and ticked off all of the "well known" students of Ip Man at the time. It was a pretty major insult to all of them, saying they did "modified" Wing Chun and only he had learned the real "traditional" Wing Chun. And the Leung Bik story was a key element of that. There was bad blood between Cheung and all the other big name Ip Man Sifus for many years. You want to talk about "folks vested in loyalties"....take a look in the mirror!

 

[Vajramusti]

Really? And just where have you been for the last 2 decades Joy? ;-) William Cheung published that story in Inside Kung Fu magazine in the 80's and ticked off all of the "well known" students of Ip Man at the time. It was a pretty major insult to all of them, saying they did "modified" Wing Chun and only he had learned the real "traditional" Wing Chun. And the Leung Bik story was a key element of that. There was bad blood between Cheung and all the other big name Ip Man Sifus for many years. You want to talk about "folks vested in loyalties"....take a look in the mirror!

Really? And just where have you been for the last 2 decades Joy? ;-) William Cheung published that story in Inside Kung Fu magazine in the 80's and ticked off all of the "well known" students of Ip Man at the time. It was a pretty major insult to all of them, saying they did "modified" Wing Chun and only he had learned the real "traditional" Wing Chun. And the Leung Bik story was a key element of that. There was bad blood between Cheung and all the other big name Ip Man Sifus for many years. You want to talk about "folks vested in loyalties"....take a look in the mirror!