The Need to Be Recognized as Superior

[Juany118]

Those points of law were all I mentioned.


Gerry Seymour
Shojin-Ryu, Nihon Goshin Aikido

The problem is I do more than WC, I guess I need to go down everything...again

-Studied and still practice Aikido,
-Studied and still practice Judo
-Studied but no longer practice Ryushinkan
-studied but no longer practice Fencing
-Study and practice WC and Inosanto Kali
-Also a certified instructor in one of the better know LE Combatives systems but everytime I have mentioned such systems at all some trolls have pounced.

The point being simply because I post and mainly comment on WC doesn't mean it's my only experience. I will never claim to be a "master" of any of the above btw. I just didn't know I would have to give a personal resume every 4 months to justify my comments.

And sorry if the above sounded snarky, it wasnt focused at any person in particular.

 

[guy b]

edit

 

[anerlich]

I'm not sure how significant it is from a risk standpoint, but there is a very real difference between applying a choke to a trained partner and someone who doesn't know what you are doing. Resistance Ina BJJ class won't include extreme flailing, unless someone panics, and then you'd probably just let them go. That flailing (due to lack of skill and possibly because they think you're going to really hurt them) can absolutely happen in a defensive situation.


Gerry Seymour
Shojin-Ryu, Nihon Goshin Aikido

"Extreme flailing" describes a commonplace defence strategy against chokes employed by just about every big or strong beginner the first month or so they wrestle. They usually just wear themselves out more quickly. Any decent Jiu Jitsu school will teach you to position yourself to avoid elbows and knees, and protect your eyes and other sensitive parts of your anatomy. In the early days of BJJ moving out of Brazil, challenges from opponents of all sizes and skill levels were accepted. Including many exponents of "extreme flailing".

If "extreme flailing" worked better than skilled defence, every instructor of every martial art on the planet would be out of business.

 

[anerlich]

The problem is I do more than WC, I guess I need to go down everything...again

CV's are not the issue here. You made assertions about the mechanics and utility of chokes and strangles with which I and others disagreed. An argument has to stand on its own, not on the qualifications of the person making it. Without verifiable statistical evidence, we have to argue from viewpoints of anecdotal experience.

You brought up your experience of TWC grappling, which I pointed out I shared. Some d!ck measuring went on, but I don't think I started it.

I believe I gave a fair assessment and critique of your video which you can share if you wish, I won't.

I am happy to accept your knowledge of the law in your area as accurate. My earlier criticism of people giving legal advice on the forum was directed generally, not at you specifically. I have no experience or expertise in such matters.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

"Extreme flailing" describes a commonplace defence strategy against chokes employed by just about every big or strong beginner the first month or so they wrestle. They usually just wear themselves out more quickly. Any decent Jiu Jitsu school will teach you to position yourself to avoid elbows and knees, and protect your eyes and other sensitive parts of your anatomy. In the early days of BJJ moving out of Brazil, challenges from opponents of all sizes and skill levels were accepted. Including many exponents of "extreme flailing".

If "extreme flailing" worked better than skilled defence, every instructor of every martial art on the planet would be out of business.

I wasn't referring to it being a danger to the person doing the choke. It's easy enough to avoid most of that - it's the same positioning you'd need to avoid purposeful use of those same limbs. I was more referring to the danger to the person receiving the blood choke, if they think you're trying to strangle them and start flailing around in panic. Again, I'm not sure if it adds any substantial risk, but it's something to think about when considering chokes (blood and air) for defensive use.

 

[anerlich]

OK, sorry, I get your point now.

Personally, I think that extreme flailing is much more dangerous to the person caught in the context of joint locks rather than chokes. Certainly training safety requires you to be aware of people hurting themselves and give up the hold and move on to something else.

In a defence situation, My safety would come before my assailant's. Though dealing with a badly behaved drunk acquaintance might require a different approach to dealing with a criminal attempting a violent assault.

 

[Nobody Important]

I could be off base here, but, I think the issue surrounding chokes/strangulation is how they are viewed by the law. If I'm not mistaken their use can be looked upon as use of lethal force. This brings up the issues of trained vs. untrained and the incidences that have ended in death, by civilian & LEO employing those types of techniques in situations where use of lethal force isn't warrented, but instead restraint. I'm not a LEO, but have used local police to help instruct defense programs. Laws may have changed since, but last I knew, using chokes & strangulation we're highly frowned upon in situations deemed non life threatening, especially by trained individuals who will be held to a higher standard in a court of law.

 

[Juany118]

CV's are not the issue here. You made assertions about the mechanics and utility of chokes and strangles with which I and others disagreed. An argument has to stand on its own, not on the qualifications of the person making it. Without verifiable statistical evidence, we have to argue from viewpoints of anecdotal experience.

You brought up your experience of TWC grappling, which I pointed out I shared. Some d!ck measuring went on, but I don't think I started it.

I believe I gave a fair assessment and critique of your video which you can share if you wish, I won't.

I am happy to accept your knowledge of the law in your area as accurate. My earlier criticism of people giving legal advice on the forum was directed generally, not at you specifically. I have no experience or expertise in such matters.

I agree with you gave a fair assessment of the video. I guess I was just remembering another thread where others, not you, said WC has no grappling. it was wrong of me to project in such a manner.

However my description of the technique simply boiled down to a few things. Maybe if I explain them as bullet points it will make more sense.

-part of the issue was semantics. From my training I just don't refer to it as a choke, so when I saw choke I was thinking "air choke." That seemed to be the source of most of the issue.
-When I speak about applying a proper carotid restraint being hard I mean to include the whole process of getting there as well with a fully resisting suspect, not simply the application of the restraint itself. I at least, one on one, find it far easier to set up arm and even leg restraints.

- when I refer to it being dangerous I meant it a few ways. First is because you have to be damn careful not to take it to far and in a real self defense situation it can be hard to stop short of "red lines.". If you cross a red line with this maneuver (vs joint locks) you can cause death and or TBI. Second if that guy zigs instead of zags and/or you screw up it can go REALLY sideways. it's not that the technique is a guaranteed killer its user error and also what @gpseymour explained better than I could regarding he actions of the "target" making it go sideways.

- legally it can put even civilians on iffy ground due to new legislation. If you black someone out using the technique and the investigators determine a hold like that wasn't justified by the level of force you are confronting you can face not only more serious but additional charges in some jurisdictions.

Because of th I just don't recommend it short of lethal force. This is one of the reasons many LE Agencies have it on the same level as lethal force or ban its use out right.

If you disagree with the above, cool, no biggie, it's just my experience and mileage there varies BUT regardless I suggest people look to the laws of their jurisdiction before using such techniques due to changing laws.

 

[drop bear]

I wasn't referring to it being a danger to the person doing the choke. It's easy enough to avoid most of that - it's the same positioning you'd need to avoid purposeful use of those same limbs. I was more referring to the danger to the person receiving the blood choke, if they think you're trying to strangle them and start flailing around in panic. Again, I'm not sure if it adds any substantial risk, but it's something to think about when considering chokes (blood and air) for defensive use.

People generally dont flail when they get choked unconscious in the streetz.

Freeze up more than anything.

Tryangle choke with added eye gouge defence.

kangaroos choking each other out.

even cutting off the windpipe from the front where in theory they have both hands free. People generally dont do anything.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

People generally dont flail when they get choked unconscious in the streetz.

Freeze up more than anything.

Tryangle choke with added eye gouge defence.

kangaroos choking each other out.

even cutting off the windpipe from the front where in theory they have both hands free. People generally dont do anything.

Interesting. I wonder what drives that response. Any idea if that's pretty universal, or just the most common response?

 

[Juany118]

Interesting. I wonder what drives that response. Any idea if that's pretty universal, or just the most common response?

Well part of that response (and it can happen) is instinct. When your head/neck is controlled your body kinda says "don't break your own neck". The problem is the only times I have felt the need to apply such a restraint (my PD's policy has that as a "red zone" so it's a last resort thing to begin with for the reasons I noted) is when they are so damn high on something that the instinct simply didn't kick in and they kept flailing making things VERY dicey.

 

[drop bear]

Interesting. I wonder what drives that response. Any idea if that's pretty universal, or just the most common response?

I think it is pretty universal. Saves oxygen a bit or something.

Or a dominance thing like with dogs.

 

[drop bear]

Well part of that response (and it can happen) is instinct. When your head/neck is controlled your body kinda says "don't break your own neck". The problem is the only times I have felt the need to apply such a restraint (my PD's policy has that as a "red zone" so it's a last resort thing to begin with for the reasons I noted) is when they are so damn high on something that the instinct simply didn't kick in and they kept flailing making things VERY dicey.

I have still shut down guys via the wind pipe who were on drugs.

 

[Juany118]

I have still shut down guys via the wind pipe who were on drugs.

Oh it's doable, just saying they tend to be the ones who keep flailing and dont instinctively lock up so you have to be careful to not cause unintended injury.

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[anerlich]

A few informed opinions I have heard have it that they go out quicker under the influence of drugs. Have not done experiments myself.

 

[Transk53]

A few informed opinions I have heard have it that they go out quicker under the influence of drugs. Have not done experiments myself.

Mark Kerr The Smashing Machine. A good place to start!

 

[Juany118]

A few informed opinions I have heard have it that they go out quicker under the influence of drugs. Have not done experiments myself.

If you apply the hold they can indeed drop faster depending on what they are on. The problem is that they tend to flail about more even when the hold is engaged until they "go under". That increases the risk of injury, even if they drop more quickly and so I think this is something to be aware of because if spinal trauma results and one can't articulate that the risk of that injury wasn't objectively reasonable based on what you faced, then the technique used may be seen as "overkill" legally and you have headaches.

Again, not saying "don't do it" rather simply "be prepared" that a person may not react to a hold on the street, the way your opponent does on the mat or in the ring.

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