Ip Family Tai Chi Chuan

[East Winds]

Xue Sheng,

The concept of the three levels of Yang Family Taijiquan (High Medium and Low) is well known and referred to by Yang Cheng Fu, Chen Wei Ming, Fu Zhong Wen, Yang Zhen Ji and Yang Zhen Duo in their respective books. And I would have been quite happy to accept your idea that this was all that Ip Tai Tak meant and that it was indeed a matter of semantics.

HOWEVER- In the original post here is the quote that matters "Master Ip told me that Yang Chen Fu taught the snake style only to his eldest son, Yang Sau Chung, and that Yang Sau Chung passed on this system only to him." Therefore I think it is clear that he is implying something entirely different form the well known three levels.

Very best wishes

 

[Xue Sheng]

Xue Sheng,

The concept of the three levels of Yang Family Taijiquan (High Medium and Low) is well known and referred to by Yang Cheng Fu, Chen Wei Ming, Fu Zhong Wen, Yang Zhen Ji and Yang Zhen Duo in their respective books. And I would have been quite happy to accept your idea that this was all that Ip Tai Tak meant and that it was indeed a matter of semantics.

HOWEVER- In the original post here is the quote that matters "Master Ip told me that Yang Chen Fu taught the snake style only to his eldest son, Yang Sau Chung, and that Yang Sau Chung passed on this system only to him." Therefore I think it is clear that he is implying something entirely different form the well known three levels.

Very best wishes

Sadly I have since found that you are correct

I was here and I felt that this was what was meant but at this point I am fairly certain the OP did not mean this.

However I will be buying Ip's book and finding out more abot this

 

[grydth]

Xue Sheng,

The concept of the three levels of Yang Family Taijiquan (High Medium and Low) is well known and referred to by Yang Cheng Fu, Chen Wei Ming, Fu Zhong Wen, Yang Zhen Ji and Yang Zhen Duo in their respective books. And I would have been quite happy to accept your idea that this was all that Ip Tai Tak meant and that it was indeed a matter of semantics.

HOWEVER- In the original post here is the quote that matters "Master Ip told me that Yang Chen Fu taught the snake style only to his eldest son, Yang Sau Chung, and that Yang Sau Chung passed on this system only to him." Therefore I think it is clear that he is implying something entirely different form the well known three levels.

Very best wishes

Another possible dimension of that quote.... this is Boyd purporting to be quoting Ip Tai Tak..... Now, both Tak and Yang Cheng Fu are deceased. So - is there deception in what Tak himself claimed.... or possibly in what Boyd is now claiming? It should be interesting what light, if any, Tak's book sheds on this.

Since when did CMA lineage read like a suspence novel?

 

[Sunrise]

Since when did CMA lineage read like a suspence novel?

well, basically always, but the tai chi community in general was a bit ignorant of that

 

[grydth]

Okay........ but it would appear that we have 3 possibilities with respect to the family art you announced:

Ip Tai Tak and Bob Boyd are/were being entirely truthful in what they claim. There may not be Yang writings to support that, but the Yangs were very lax in those years, and who writes everything down anyway? Bad record keeping by the Yangs is no reason to disparage these men.

Ip Tai Tak never made any false claims. But Bob Boyd, figuring both Ip Tai Tak and the old Yang Masters are dead, figures it is safe to exagerrate or 'puff' the new art he's selling.... With nobody alive to contradict him, why not add a little faux legitimacy to the new art and make it more saleable? The new art may be beneficial and worthy, but claims of a Yang pedigree are false.

Ip Tai Tak made up some of his study and key claims as pertains to Yang masters. Boyd, knowingly or unknowingly, is peddling these in modern times. What a hoax!

Now I do not know which of the three is correct - but you might. You appear close to Boyd - Hell, you may even be Boyd - so I'd appreciate anything else you can add. If you know, I would also like to know what relationship, if any, Boyd has with John Ding.

Ignorance flourishes when knowledge is hidden.

 

[Sunrise]

Hi Grydth,
well first of all, I am definitely NOT Bob, but a german student of his. My own website is at www.iptaichi.de and you may call or skype me at any time to validate that, or have a general chatter about tai chi chuan

The three points you brought up are all reasonable, and without the often sought time viewing device not really discernable.

So I explain it from my pov.
I did tai chi always in the Yang Sau Chung lineage (short form not counting). At first I learned the way of Chu, king hung, the last disciple of YSC. Since I came from a fighting art before that, I found it lacking in the martial sector, to splintered to be calls a whole system (for me) but relaxing and fun to do anyway.
The I came in contact with the Chu Gin Soon lineage. And wow was I happy, this was so much more martial and clear feeling then what I had learned before that I switched completely over, and studied this way further on, making my body more flexible and healthier than before. the martial applications also made sense, big time, so I was mostly happy, except for some issues in leg movement and body movement that did not quite fit, as well as the difference in executing the hand form and the weapon forms. Therefore we had different training sets like power push hands, Wa Pu (moving root stepping) and so on, so the gap was somehow bridged. All in all it was a great structure training and also lots of fun.

Then I met John Ding, the 1st disciple of GM Ip, on a workshop and was really impressed with his softness and great martial skill. I was also impressed at that time with his "no touching" application, but not with the way he used it on the people, but that is a purely personal thing. By now I know that a great deal psychology is involved in these things, so whatever. I asked him if what he was teaching was master Ip´s style and he said yes, but based on the Chu King Hung form. So after some workshops with John and some phone talks I came to think that GM Ip taught a mixture of Chu King Hung and Chu Gin Soon style. It was more complete, soft and powerful than I experienced before. Still Yin-Yang singing in the Form, also Power Push hands and so on.
Then appeared the video of GM Yang Sau Chung on YouTube, and it looked so different. Then John said the Form of Ip Tai Tak was only for experienced students that had great skill in the form - meaning much much later *bg*

By chance I came in contact with Bob Boyd in early 2006 and we had lengthy discussion over the pond, on tai chi chuan and Ip Tai Tak, and he told me that Ip did a whole different form internally, that looked more like that what I saw on the YSC video on YouTube. So I invited him over to do a seminar on Snake Style and it simply rocked. This was what I searched for all the years, no difference in stepping and moving in either hand, sword, saber or spear form, no yin-yang singing or bridging sets to cover gaps in the different forms, a more "fluid" long boxing form, nice and "soft to brutal" MA applications, great preliminary workout sets to enhance the body, and so on. I totally droped all previous tai chi knowledge and train only Master Ips style since. I also changed my whole school teaching curriculum to it, and all my students feel it is more natural and lively then the "stuff" we did before. Also my medics, doctors and physio therapists that train with me are more than happy, for now all the micro muscles in the deep layer of the body are involved also, and the benefit for the body is much much bigger, as they say.

As to John Ding and Bob Boyd. They are Kung Fu brothers, have been trained by the same Master at different times, but have no contact with one another.
John Ding is now teaching the best of the three masters he trained with, as he says.
Bob teaches only what Ip taught him, and dropped everything else.

Best,
Sascha