Sylo
Purple Belt
you lost me after this.
WTF TKD sparring hands down?
- Thread starter dagg3r
- Start date
you lost me after this.
Le5t's clear up a cpuple of misconceptions. I'm wtf stylist...and I am certainly a fighter. I'm a good enough fighter that I can adjust my technique, tactics and strategy to meet the task at hand, be it a competition, dojang sparring or self-defense situation.
While you don't like the "hands down" , "bouncy" look of olympic sparring...kep in mind the people doing it are good martial artists. Good enough that they are doing the correct things to persevere in that situation. What they do in the ring is NOT the same thing as what they might do in a self-defense.
Furthermore, you seem to have the misconception that olympic style sparring is not full contact. Welp, last I checked, it is not only only full contact sparring...but it is also continuous sparring. In other words, when I am in the ring, I'm kicking as hard as I can repeatedly until the buzzer sounds. It is not semi-contact (ITF), or point stop-light/medium contact (many style of sport karate). It is full contatc...thus all the protective gearl.
You say that to compete in an olympic style match you would have to break the rules. With all due repect, that's ridiculous. Are you saying that you lack the control to fight wiht the confines of a given ruleset? What if you were in an SD situation where you were dealing with a drunken friend who decided to "test your mettle"? would you just take his head off and leave him broekn and beleding on the ground becuase that's how you train? Be clear, I'm NOT saying that is what you WOULD do...I'm making the analogy that a good martial artist is able to excercise control and has the skill to modify his technique to mee tthe demands of ANY situation.
What one sees in olympic sparring is nothing mre than martial artists modifying their tevchnique to meet the demands of the rules. You might not like the rules, but don't be so narrow minded as to think that those of us that choose to abide by them are also bound by them in every other aspect of the art.
it is clear that you really don't know much about this aspect of TKD. Before making further criticisms, go try a few competitions, maybe try some classes out at a good WTF school. You may be surprised. You will find serious individuals who work hard, train hard and have a true desire to master the art if TKD...even while pursuing success in the sport aspect of it. You will find these martial artists to be strong, fast and cagey fighters. Ones who can adjust and adapt to be dabngerous not only in the ring but on the street as well.
Peace,
Erik
Sylo
Purple Belt
I don't know about anyone else. But, I don't have a problem with modifying things to fit the ruleset. Fitting the ruleset is different from the "gaming" we are talking about. I could enter a WTF tourney and follow the rules, no hands to the face.. etc. But, what I couldn't do.. is game the system. So I'd never win. Not everyone does what we are talking about. I've sparred some really good WTF guys before, so I am not discrediting WTF. I'm discrediting the people who don't learn "TKD" they learn to "compete" only.
If they are all just following the ruleset, then there are no gripes from me. I don't think my issue is just with TKD, more so with sport martial arts in general. Humans seem to find a way to min/max everything they do. They'll always figure out cheap ways to have an advantage over someone else. Once everyone figures out how to do this, it just looks bad.
There are some very good WTF people out there, as there is in all styles of martial arts. I just want to see the people who are only training to "game" the system.. weeded out. If I see another blitz punch or clinch.. I'm gonna puke.
kaizasosei
Master Black Belt
It would be good if we could really try to understand where the others opinions are coming from before going to any great lengths...
after reading your comments in the last post,Sylo, i can really relate to some of the stuff you say. i myself, also sometimes dislike socalled specialists that advance only for profit or glory. especially in a world like that of the martial arts where technically, bad martial arts is practically a health hazard, not to mention a something of a farse.
however, if i may add a word of advice from my own experience; at the end of the day, you are your own being. noone can own you or taint you. even if they are tainted, you should be all the more happy that you are not. not to take pleasure in the error of others but at least not to lose too much sleep over it.
on the other hand, you must remain grounded in your center so that you draw them into your world not the other way around. then, the trick or the challenge is to do this in good spirits.
j
after reading your comments in the last post,Sylo, i can really relate to some of the stuff you say. i myself, also sometimes dislike socalled specialists that advance only for profit or glory. especially in a world like that of the martial arts where technically, bad martial arts is practically a health hazard, not to mention a something of a farse.
however, if i may add a word of advice from my own experience; at the end of the day, you are your own being. noone can own you or taint you. even if they are tainted, you should be all the more happy that you are not. not to take pleasure in the error of others but at least not to lose too much sleep over it.
on the other hand, you must remain grounded in your center so that you draw them into your world not the other way around. then, the trick or the challenge is to do this in good spirits.
j
I can understand that...but it'll never happen. That's human nature. In all endeavors, there will be those who look to win by any means necessary.
That's the way of the world. Best I can do is train hard, work within the rules...you may call it gaming...I call it adapting. for instance, before they changed the hogu...the old style hogus were a little thinner up top near the collar bone. Anybody jammed me, I'd punch them as hard as i could there...never scored a point, but it sure hurt like hell. That was usually enough to get my opponent to back off right into my kicking range. It's all legal and I don't see that as cheating. it doesn't work as well because of the way the equipment is now.
I guess where we disagree is with the percentage of WTF people who are ONLY sport oriented and who do not study the complete art. i think the percentage is low (much less than 50%) while i get the sense that you seem to feel the percentage is higher (more than 50%). I've not done the hard research to figure out where the truth lies. All i can say is taht whre i live around OPhiladelphia, we've got lots of good WTF schools that have strong competition programs, but their overall curriculum is complete and all their students do everything. I allso know that there are schools that are sports only...but like I said earlier, they recruit, you don't get in unless you've proved yourself elsewhere.
Peace,
Erik
That's the way of the world. Best I can do is train hard, work within the rules...you may call it gaming...I call it adapting. for instance, before they changed the hogu...the old style hogus were a little thinner up top near the collar bone. Anybody jammed me, I'd punch them as hard as i could there...never scored a point, but it sure hurt like hell. That was usually enough to get my opponent to back off right into my kicking range. It's all legal and I don't see that as cheating. it doesn't work as well because of the way the equipment is now.
I guess where we disagree is with the percentage of WTF people who are ONLY sport oriented and who do not study the complete art. i think the percentage is low (much less than 50%) while i get the sense that you seem to feel the percentage is higher (more than 50%). I've not done the hard research to figure out where the truth lies. All i can say is taht whre i live around OPhiladelphia, we've got lots of good WTF schools that have strong competition programs, but their overall curriculum is complete and all their students do everything. I allso know that there are schools that are sports only...but like I said earlier, they recruit, you don't get in unless you've proved yourself elsewhere.
Peace,
Erik
BrandonLucas
3rd Black Belt
First, this is the type of response that I can respect, and I thank you for responding in this manner.
As I have stated in one of my previous posts, I can only go on the experience that I have had, and that I'm not trying to make blanket statements about WTF or the Olympic style. I have, in fact, sparred several WTF practitioners, and they were sparring under our school's ruleset, which is full contact, hands to the head.
When I sparred these guys, it took little to no effort to frustrate them and "win" the sparring match (we sparred during class, and there is no clear winner in sparring matches in class, but you can pretty much tell if you've gotten the upper hand in the match). After the initial sparring matches with them, 2 of the guys wanted to spar me again, and were actually trying to hurt me to prove a point. The outcome of those matches was the same as the first.
Now, I'm not going to sit here and tell you that they didn't hurt when they connected kicks. The problem was that they were trained to spar with their hands down because they thought that this made them faster. With these WTF guys that I sparred, it was basically the same thing you're talking about. They didn't have the knowledge of how to spar in a different ruleset.
I have tried to spar doing the hands-down method, and I've eaten more than 1 kick to the face. I know that I'm not good at trying to spar within the ruleset of the Olympic style. I like to punch to the head. It's effective. I'm not saying that I don't have the control to adapt to other rulesets. I just don't understand what the point of that ruleset is...
The sparring competition is supposed to simulate combat. That is what it was designed for. By eliminating points being scored by hand techniques to the head, it no longer simulates realistic combat. It now resembles a game with rules.
The rules are exploited when competitors in the competition discover that it's hard to kick someone in the head if you rub your chest protector against your opponent's chest protector. Not only that, but if points are not awarded for the use of any kind of hand techniques, then why put your hands up at all?
So now, the kicks are coming hard and fast, but it's deemed better to hop out of the way and counter-kick than to block the kick and counter with a different technique that would expend less engergy and be more effective to end the competition.
Again, I'm not trying to be disrespectful, but I do not see any other martial arts in the Olympics that compete in totally different manners than they train. I'm not saying that someone competing in the Olympics wouldn't train this way, but you and I both are involved in TKD, and yet, our styles are obviously different.
Watch the Judo competition in the Olympics. The way they compete is the same as the traditional Judo schools that I've seen teach.
Why should TKD be different?
Sylo
Purple Belt
I think your probably right, which is why I've changed my stance slightly to include sport martial arts, and not just TKD. TKD isn't the only place you see this happening. The whole thing about competition schools not wanting you, unless they hand pick you... based on what?
I'm guessing tournament wins right?
I guess my best bet is to worry about me, and my training and focus on what I want to do and not worry about everyone else. I want to open a school and teach, and maybe do a small amount of competing in the mean time.
Brandon, I really enjoy a lot of your posts
, but please don't assume what others here are. Just as others shouldn't assume such of you.Anyway, on the subject of gamers, the term player is generally what I see used by trade publications when refering to sport taekwondoist. Which is appropriate; athletes are generally called players of whatever game they participate in. When you say gamer, I immediately think of tabletop RPG (guilty on that count), video games (guilty there too
), or PC gaming (haven't gotten too into that yet). Certainly, I don't consider the term insulting to a taekwondoist, but usually they're called players. Regarding people taking martial arts classes for reasons other than self defense, sadly, lots of people do, and it isn't limited to KKW/WTF schools. There are plenty of school owners in all federations who are happy to make a buck (or hundreds) off of that crowd.
Lots of people just want their kids to be disciplined, exercised, and watched by someone else after school and during the day in the summer.
Lots of adults just want some cardio and to be around healthy people (not just physically healthy, but people leading a healthy lifestyle, which is generally associated with the martial arts).
Daniel
BrandonLucas
3rd Black Belt
Thank you for clearing alot of that up. And you're right, I shouldn't assume anything about anyone.
I was only using the term "gamer" because, for some reason, the word player wouldn't come to my mind. It makes me think of someone playing something like World of Warcraft as well. Player should be the correct term, and is not a bad name to call someone. Not that I meant "gamer" to be derogatory at all, but you're right.
I appologize for the trashiness of my prior post.
I was only using the term "gamer" because, for some reason, the word player wouldn't come to my mind. It makes me think of someone playing something like World of Warcraft as well. Player should be the correct term, and is not a bad name to call someone. Not that I meant "gamer" to be derogatory at all, but you're right.
I appologize for the trashiness of my prior post.
Brandon,
I think that with near complete sport at one end and the uber-traditional at the other, with every permutation in between, the confusion over terminology is almost unavoidable.
Just for the record, I don't find the term gamer derogatory at all; the sport crowd is very adamant that it is a game when criticisms regarding lack of SD in the sport are raised, so gamer is a descriptively correct term in my opinion.
Daniel
I think that with near complete sport at one end and the uber-traditional at the other, with every permutation in between, the confusion over terminology is almost unavoidable.
Just for the record, I don't find the term gamer derogatory at all; the sport crowd is very adamant that it is a game when criticisms regarding lack of SD in the sport are raised, so gamer is a descriptively correct term in my opinion.
Daniel
Sylo
Purple Belt
this is it in a nutshell.
we just want some seperation. We know that its almost impossible to achieve, but one can dream right?
I'm going to jump back on my fencing comparison again, Sylo. Rather than separation, we could always do what they do in fencing; three distinct weapons each with their own style: foil, epee, and sabre.
Foil is much like WTF sparring in terms of target; thrusts to the torso and head excepting the back of the head. Epee allows you to strike via thrust anywhere except the back of the head, while sabre is everything above the waist excepting the back of the head, with thrusts and cuts. Strategies are very different for the three weapons.
Some fencers compete in two, sometimes all three, but generally, they have a preference and stick to it in competition.
So why not three different events? WTF style sparring, light contact continuous (ITF style?) and point/stop sparring (ATA?). Each favors training in their style of origin, each focuses on a different aspect of taekwondo.
Daniel
Foil is much like WTF sparring in terms of target; thrusts to the torso and head excepting the back of the head. Epee allows you to strike via thrust anywhere except the back of the head, while sabre is everything above the waist excepting the back of the head, with thrusts and cuts. Strategies are very different for the three weapons.
Some fencers compete in two, sometimes all three, but generally, they have a preference and stick to it in competition.
So why not three different events? WTF style sparring, light contact continuous (ITF style?) and point/stop sparring (ATA?). Each favors training in their style of origin, each focuses on a different aspect of taekwondo.
Daniel
zDom
Senior Master
Better yet would be something similar in which the "match" consists of three rounds: one round each of differing rule sets.
Then the results might be more representative of which competitor is the best martial artist and require competitors to train a more rounded curriculum.
slingblade01
Yellow Belt
The proper term today is Athlete while palyer is still globally accepted.
Thanks Daniel and Erik for the patience.
Thanks Daniel and Erik for the patience.
BrandonLucas
3rd Black Belt
I wouldn't object to seeing the 3 different types seperated in one tournement, or even in the same match with 3 different rounds.
I just don't understand why we're taught these effective hand techniques, and then asked that we not use them to compete with. I remember the analogy used earlier about not being given the right tools...I think it's more of a case of we're given the hammer and nails, but told that we can only use the nails.
Just my opinion.
On a side note, I can agree that not using hand techniques to the head increases your kicking range and ability, so there is SOME effectiveness to it. I still hold to the fact that you should compete how you train.
I just don't understand why we're taught these effective hand techniques, and then asked that we not use them to compete with. I remember the analogy used earlier about not being given the right tools...I think it's more of a case of we're given the hammer and nails, but told that we can only use the nails.
Just my opinion.
On a side note, I can agree that not using hand techniques to the head increases your kicking range and ability, so there is SOME effectiveness to it. I still hold to the fact that you should compete how you train.
Sylo
Purple Belt
Cool, player it is.
No disrespect to anyone that thought we meant offense by using "Gamer". I'm a gamer, when it comes to alot of things. World of Warcraft is a guilty pleasure of mine.
I think we might all possibly be close to agreement now.
I think ITF, WTF, and ATA all have things in common and all have things they can learn from each other. I actually my like to try visiting a WTF and ATA school one day just to see how a class flows. ITF is all I've ever known other than seeing people at competitions.
I still stand by my stance of not liking to see folks train soley for competition, skipping over all the tradition. But, as many have pointed out.. there seems to be a very small margin of people who do this. Most, have ran the gamut of training the traditional way, and are just wanting to take their skills to the next level.
I think the idea mentioned earlier about having 3 seperate forms of sparring to be judged on might be something they should look at. It would be far more interesting to see IMO. Because, they would have to train harder since it would include more or sometimes less for each type of sparring. It'd be less easy to play the system that way, since you'd have to cross train to be good at all 3 and being REALLY good at just 1 wouldn't get you very far. I love this idea.
Would anyone that attends a WTF school be willing to video tape a session (with permission) so those of us in locations where we don't have those kinds of schools can see what its like, to have a better picture of how things really are.
With that, I've officially made it through 2 weeks of training after coming back from a 6 month hiatus. I think i am finally gonna stick with it this time! Black belt here I come.
Well, while I;ve never seen a tournament locally that does ITF rules matches...I have seen some AAU events that have an olympic psarring category (full contact, continuous, pads, etc.) and point-stop (head, foot and hand gear, light contact, non-continuous). These are always interesting events when we get our athletes there.
The most ridiculous thing I saw was during the point-stop event. My son won his first match through sheer speed off the mark and some quick backfists. Then he ended up against a guy who had a good 6 inches on him. This guy would just reach out a drop a hammer fist on the top of his head (think whack a mole). Personally, I see that as an inferior hand technique to the head...Zak lost that fight as he couldn't over come his opponents superior reacha dn the whack a mole attack.
Bottom line is, no matte rho wyou spar...there will be rules. these rules have to exist so as to maintain the safety of participants. The sie ffect of rules is that they create an artificial environment that only approximates actual combat and it leaves room for people to exploit holes in the rules.
Peace,
Erik
The most ridiculous thing I saw was during the point-stop event. My son won his first match through sheer speed off the mark and some quick backfists. Then he ended up against a guy who had a good 6 inches on him. This guy would just reach out a drop a hammer fist on the top of his head (think whack a mole). Personally, I see that as an inferior hand technique to the head...Zak lost that fight as he couldn't over come his opponents superior reacha dn the whack a mole attack.
Bottom line is, no matte rho wyou spar...there will be rules. these rules have to exist so as to maintain the safety of participants. The sie ffect of rules is that they create an artificial environment that only approximates actual combat and it leaves room for people to exploit holes in the rules.
Peace,
Erik
BrandonLucas
3rd Black Belt
The reason that I can agree to 3 different areas of sparring either within in the same tournement or same match is that it would make it hard for people who simply train to compete to game the game.
If sparring matches consisted of WTF rules the 1st round, ITF the 2nd, and ATA the 3rd, then that would cover all of the rulesets, and competitors would have to train for all 3, eliminating the people who fly through TKD in a year and have their 2nd dan. If you actually have to work on ALL aspects of the martial art, then that would take out some of the shortcuts alot of these people who compete take.
Sure, they could still spar a round with their hands down and rub chestprotectors together, but in the next round, they better learn to cover up. So while they could game the game to win a round, that wouldn't be enough to win the match.
If sparring matches consisted of WTF rules the 1st round, ITF the 2nd, and ATA the 3rd, then that would cover all of the rulesets, and competitors would have to train for all 3, eliminating the people who fly through TKD in a year and have their 2nd dan. If you actually have to work on ALL aspects of the martial art, then that would take out some of the shortcuts alot of these people who compete take.
Sure, they could still spar a round with their hands down and rub chestprotectors together, but in the next round, they better learn to cover up. So while they could game the game to win a round, that wouldn't be enough to win the match.
