I've said all that I have to say on this thread.
Peace.
Peace.
WTF President : "New uniforms will further promote taekwondo"
- Thread starter andyjeffries
- Start date
miguksaram
Master of Arts
I just want to know where the line is. It's OK to call a specific race thieves and liars, but it is not OK to outwardly state your suspicion of a member of this site to be ignorant or a racist for stating something like that.
I guess I'm done too.
"Korean" is not a race. However broad painting of any group is not an acceptable debate tactic here, and the TKD area is not the Study.
We're saying you are welcome to discuss the issue/matter/topic however the insults on -both- sides aren't welcome.
This and previous notices are public, no fingers pointed warnings that are on par with someone saying 'hey, relax' hoping to keep things from descending to a bar fight with the cops called.
As to the exact line, it's here.
OP
OP
andyjeffries
Senior Master
Hi Bob,
I don't know if you're just stepping in as a moderator or joining the discussion, but as it's a public forum/discussion group, I'd like to discuss your posting ;-)
One way "race" is defined is:
"A group of people united or classified together on the basis of common history, nationality, or geographic distribution: the German race."
Under that definition Korean surely can be considered a race.
As a more precise definition, by the United Nations Resolution the International Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Racial Discrimination, Article 1:
"In this Convention, the term "racial discrimination" shall mean any distinction, exclusion, restriction or preference based on race, colour, descent, or national or ethnic origin"
Now, while race is explicitly listed (probably to be clear that race has other, more restrictive definitions) it considers that national origin can be a source of "racial discrimination".
Thank you for the link. I'd like to quote part of section 1.8:
"Threads or replies promoting or expressing intolerant views towards any group (race, religion, sexual preference, interracial couples, etc.) will not be tolerated."
How does the quote:
"look, the cold hard reality is when it comes to martial arts? koreans are thieves and liars"
Not count as expressing an intolerant view towards any group, even disgregarding considering "Korean" to be a race or not?
Full disclosure: Because of the type of views expressed by Twin Fist in the past, he's in my ignore list so I only get to read his posts second-hand when people take the bait. This doesn't make me necessarily biased against him, just that if you don't like someone's views, ignore them.
Edit: Of course, your simple answer to this may be "this is my house, my interpretation, my rules, my ball", but hopefully you'll answer the points so that we can all learn where the boundaries are.
I don't know if you're just stepping in as a moderator or joining the discussion, but as it's a public forum/discussion group, I'd like to discuss your posting ;-)
One way "race" is defined is:
"A group of people united or classified together on the basis of common history, nationality, or geographic distribution: the German race."
Under that definition Korean surely can be considered a race.
As a more precise definition, by the United Nations Resolution the International Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Racial Discrimination, Article 1:
"In this Convention, the term "racial discrimination" shall mean any distinction, exclusion, restriction or preference based on race, colour, descent, or national or ethnic origin"
Now, while race is explicitly listed (probably to be clear that race has other, more restrictive definitions) it considers that national origin can be a source of "racial discrimination".
Thank you for the link. I'd like to quote part of section 1.8:
"Threads or replies promoting or expressing intolerant views towards any group (race, religion, sexual preference, interracial couples, etc.) will not be tolerated."
How does the quote:
"look, the cold hard reality is when it comes to martial arts? koreans are thieves and liars"
Not count as expressing an intolerant view towards any group, even disgregarding considering "Korean" to be a race or not?
Full disclosure: Because of the type of views expressed by Twin Fist in the past, he's in my ignore list so I only get to read his posts second-hand when people take the bait. This doesn't make me necessarily biased against him, just that if you don't like someone's views, ignore them.
Edit: Of course, your simple answer to this may be "this is my house, my interpretation, my rules, my ball", but hopefully you'll answer the points so that we can all learn where the boundaries are.
Andy, to put it simply, I don't accept the UN's definition of a nationality as a race. So I don't see "Korean" as a race any more than I do "American". So that part's a personal interpretation. That said, if my staff on review sees a problem, and reaches a consensus I usually back that over personal interpretation. MT's moderation does it's best to be fair and free of personal bias or 'The Bob Show' admining.
My jumping in was to make a friendly push for civility, and back my staff who are engaged officially. At this point, I'm just 'here' as it were.
The rules the rule, and our policies always been to warn first, try to cool things off, and get things back on track before bringing out the stick. It does mean we 'say stop' alot, and people keep on going regardless. Which is why some get infractions, limited access and sometimes booted.
It's never been our position to act as 'thought police', or 'censors' (outside of a profanity filter), as long as our rules are followed.
While I understand the complaint about TF's statement, I don't see it as racist.
Poorly phrased, rude and an ignorant blanket painting of an entire culture yes. Racist no.
Of course the rude and blanket part are of note, and are being discussed and noted in the back, which is why (in part) the warning and my nudge were placed.
As to 'where are the lines', they're blurred, because we try to let everyone work things out themselves before we have to really get involved. That whole 'you're all adults, we're not babysitters and people hate when they are treated like kids and we hate having to be heavy handed'. thing, y'know?
Hope that helps and we can get back to the uniform discussion.
:asian:
My jumping in was to make a friendly push for civility, and back my staff who are engaged officially. At this point, I'm just 'here' as it were.
The rules the rule, and our policies always been to warn first, try to cool things off, and get things back on track before bringing out the stick. It does mean we 'say stop' alot, and people keep on going regardless. Which is why some get infractions, limited access and sometimes booted.
It's never been our position to act as 'thought police', or 'censors' (outside of a profanity filter), as long as our rules are followed.
While I understand the complaint about TF's statement, I don't see it as racist.
Poorly phrased, rude and an ignorant blanket painting of an entire culture yes. Racist no.
Of course the rude and blanket part are of note, and are being discussed and noted in the back, which is why (in part) the warning and my nudge were placed.
As to 'where are the lines', they're blurred, because we try to let everyone work things out themselves before we have to really get involved. That whole 'you're all adults, we're not babysitters and people hate when they are treated like kids and we hate having to be heavy handed'. thing, y'know?
Hope that helps and we can get back to the uniform discussion.
:asian:
mastercole
Master Black Belt
This coming from someone who actually participated, wore one and knows what they are for. Imagine that, first hand knowledge.
mastercole
Master Black Belt
Just to clarify these are specifically for poomsae competition correct? I haven't gotten a straight answer out of anyone yetd
Yes, they were specifically for the competitors who competed at the WTF World Poomsae Championships.
I usually don't like regurgitating old topics, but I was wondering. Are there different Korean names to correspond with the different levels (Level-III, Level-II and Level- I) of Kukkiwon certified instructors or they are all referred to as sabum?
mastercole
Master Black Belt
In Korean, the Kukkiwon classify's Sabum as "sam geup", "ee geup" and "il geup". They are all refereed to as Sabum.
MSUTKD
Purple Belt
If you have not seen the new uniform designs then why criticize them? I believe they have been posted before. When the Taekwondo Park opens they want to “re-energize” taekwondos identity. We can disagree about the design but I do not believe it has anything to do with money. I think they are just trying to make things better.
With all the “bad” words about taekwondo I can assure you that good people (Koreans, Americans, Europeans, Africans, Pacific’s, and Asians) are on the case. The leadership in Korea is trying, as is the other nations, to make this right. With all of the negative speak about sport; sport can unite the world in a way that is magic. I am saying this because I have been there and I have experienced it myself.
If you think that martial art and sport are not the same then get off your butt, train for real, make a US Team and see the world. You will see what Korea has done with taekwondo and be humbled and amazed at the martial art that is very present.
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It is right on the certificates, guep, which is what mastercole said. that translates into "class", 3rd class, 2nd class, 1st class. It is the same designation as the WTF International Referee status and Kukkiwon Hanmadang IR status.
ralphmcpherson
Senior Master
Do yourself a favour and check them out. In my opinion they look hillarious. I was telling some people about them at a tkd camp recently. One of the guys there downloaded pictures of the new uniforms on his phone and passed it around. People laughed so hard they were literally choking on their beer. Really funny stuff.
It's ridiculously hard to try and keep a straight face while you choke on your beer, BTW
Apparently I'm the only regional instructor who thinks they're, um, somewhat goofy especially with the overcoat.
taekwondodo
Green Belt
It's ridiculously hard to try and keep a straight face while you choke on your beer, BTW
Yeah..I think its funny looking too.. but damn it, I earned my right to wear that funny uniform at the 6th World Poomsae Championship. Its unique with a not so pleasant looking color but and it has a peel off USA label on the back. There are only FEW competitors in the world earned that right to wear it and I am so proud to wear it. When I wear it in a tournament, I will stand out and they will say.. hey that lady wearing the ugly looking uniform that has huge letters USA on the spot and they will ask " whats up with the uniform". Then I will tell them "I am one of the USA Poomsae Team member" I can only say there is only one on this board can say the same.
mastercole
Master Black Belt
Yeah..I think its funny looking too.. but damn it, I earned my right to wear that funny uniform at the 6th World Poomsae Championship. Its unique with a not so pleasant looking color but and it has a peel off USA label on the back. There are only FEW competitors in the world earned that right to wear it and I am so proud to wear it. When I wear it in a tournament, I will stand out and they will say.. hey that lady wearing the ugly looking uniform that has huge letters USA on the spot and they will ask " whats up with the uniform". Then I will tell them "I am one of the USA Poomsae Team member" I can only say there is only one on this board can say the same.
Excellent post. I am not up on what is and what is not fashionable, however, from what this Poomsae Team member wrote I just learned something that might or might not have been intentional on the part of the WTF. These uniforms are a GREAT marketing tool to bring attention to the World Poomsae Championships.
I know if I saw someone wearing one, the first thing I would be tempted to do is to ask them about their experience at the World Poomsae Championships. Then I might ask them for some details on Poomsae performance or techniques. So weather I like them or not, I like the result.
MSUTKD
Purple Belt
Yeah..I think its funny looking too.. but damn it, I earned my right to wear that funny uniform at the 6th World Poomsae Championship. Its unique with a not so pleasant looking color but and it has a peel off USA label on the back. There are only FEW competitors in the world earned that right to wear it and I am so proud to wear it. When I wear it in a tournament, I will stand out and they will say.. hey that lady wearing the ugly looking uniform that has huge letters USA on the spot and they will ask " whats up with the uniform". Then I will tell them "I am one of the USA Poomsae Team member" I can only say there is only one on this board can say the same.
Thanks for jumping in teammate. I have to admit though, I will not be wearing it to any other tournaments,
i believe what mastercole says is correct, it brings poomsae some needed attention.
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