WTF President : "New uniforms will further promote taekwondo"

[troubleenuf]

You know.. here is the deal. If you are going to change something there should be a reason for the change. You should not be changing something just to simply change it for the sake of change. Now if you are changing it what better reason could you change it than to encourage participation. In any sport if you are going to encourage participation you need to look at the younger age for that participation. So here is the what I am seeing lately from Korea.
Forms: Robotic type forms that do not encourage individual personality nor do they showcase Taekwondos dynamic kicking- want to encourage youth- get rid of the "traditional forms" introduce "competition forms that actually showcase Taekwondos best stuff and reward those astounding high kicks and displays of athleticism. Want to keep traditional forms... fine use them like skating does for prelims and then open up the non traditional froms for the finals. Dang get something that is Dynamic... Use the BEST stuff we have and the stuff that the kids WANT to do and you will see participation spike!
Uniforms- Dont designs something that your grandma would have worn... get someone to design something that is dynamic that the kids WANT to wear. Something that looks cool, that has some style. Hate to tell you... Grandmas gown aint going to make it.

 

[andyjeffries]

You know.. here is the deal. If you are going to change something there should be a reason for the change. You should not be changing something just to simply change it for the sake of change.

But a valid reason for change could be as simple as "we prefer it". The older generation that are in charge of groups like the WTF may prefer a more traditional Korean style outfit (and the Gyeonggibok is much more similar to a Hanbok). If they prefer it, that's a valid reason for wanting to change it.

You may not agree with their reason, but they have them

Personally I'm not a fan of a dark blue belt instead of black and I'm not a fan of yellow for the higher dans (but I'm not one so it doesn't affect me) - aside from that, I actually quite like them. I plan to buy one when they come out (found out over the weekend who the UK distributor will be and I already have an account with them)...

 

[miguksaram]

I change my Judo gi's in Shiai...but that's because I'm told to. Interesting about a different uniform for poomsae/kata/forms.

It is not required to change uniforms. I just do it because of the what I do in terms of the three divisions. For traditional forms I wear my traditional karate uniform. For weapons, I put on a hakama because I do a kumsul form. For sparring I have a very light weight uniform that I put in that helps me move faster. However, I could stay with just one uniform for all divisions if I wanted to.

 

[miguksaram]

I'm not a fan. I don't like the look but it goes far beyond that, I don't like what it means.

Becoming "more Korean" as the WTF puts it is nothing other than bowing to pressure from groups who will never be a part of the WTF anyway. Especially the midnight blue belt. Trying to look more like Tang Soo Do will not impress the TSD people because they don't actually care what we do beyond a passing remark and looking more like Tang Soo Do will alienate the people like myself who, for some insane reason, have thought we were part of a TaeKwonDo organization.

What is wrong with dressing a bit more culturally? It is a Korean art after all. I don't hear objections to people having to dress more "Chinese" when doing kungfu or wushu. Nor do I hear people objecting to dressing more Japanese when doing Kenjutsu. So what is the hang up here?

In my opinion we need to stand as KKW TaeKwonDoin, not as Korean, or American, or anything else. TKD is its own identity. Again, I am proud to be a KKW member but I feel part of my responsibility is to be informed and have my own feelings on big changes like this.

Keep in mind that this is not a KKW decision. This is a WTF decision which only effects the national and world competition sanctioned by WTF. So unless you are going to be competing at national and world level competitions sanctioned by WTF, it really shouldn't effect you at all.

 

[miguksaram]

You know.. here is the deal. If you are going to change something there should be a reason for the change. You should not be changing something just to simply change it for the sake of change. Now if you are changing it what better reason could you change it than to encourage participation. In any sport if you are going to encourage participation you need to look at the younger age for that participation. So here is the what I am seeing lately from Korea.
Forms: Robotic type forms that do not encourage individual personality nor do they showcase Taekwondos dynamic kicking- want to encourage youth- get rid of the "traditional forms" introduce "competition forms that actually showcase Taekwondos best stuff and reward those astounding high kicks and displays of athleticism. Want to keep traditional forms... fine use them like skating does for prelims and then open up the non traditional froms for the finals. Dang get something that is Dynamic... Use the BEST stuff we have and the stuff that the kids WANT to do and you will see participation spike!

So in essence you want to make it similar to sport karate tournaments? I would like to see that as well. Have separate divisions for traditional and creative forms.

Uniforms- Dont designs something that your grandma would have worn... get someone to design something that is dynamic that the kids WANT to wear. Something that looks cool, that has some style. Hate to tell you... Grandmas gown aint going to make it.

I would disagree to a point. On the sport karate circuits you will see a lot of kids wearing traditional looking uniforms and designing to look "ancient". I personally like this more cultural design in the uniform. However, I do agree that if you split of forms division to a traditional and a creative then in creative they should allow the competitors to wear something modern if they wish.

 

[ETinCYQX]

What is wrong with dressing a bit more culturally? It is a Korean art after all. I don't hear objections to people having to dress more "Chinese" when doing kungfu or wushu. Nor do I hear people objecting to dressing more Japanese when doing Kenjutsu. So what is the hang up here?

What is wrong with it is that by dressing "more Korean" you're distancing us from TaeKwonDo in my mind. These don't look anything like the TaeKwonDo dobok always has and I consider the Dobok part of our identity.

The problem is that Keep in mind that this is not a KKW decision. This is a WTF decision which only effects the national and world competition sanctioned by WTF. So unless you are going to be competing at national and world level competitions sanctioned by WTF, it really shouldn't effect you at all.

You're right, of course. Misspoke. As far as affecting me I probably won't compete in poomsae at all anytime soon let alone at a high level so no, no direct implications to me. It's just important to me to have knowledge of and an opinion on big changes like this.

 

[ETinCYQX]

It is not required to change uniforms. I just do it because of the what I do in terms of the three divisions. For traditional forms I wear my traditional karate uniform. For weapons, I put on a hakama because I do a kumsul form. For sparring I have a very light weight uniform that I put in that helps me move faster. However, I could stay with just one uniform for all divisions if I wanted to.

I knew what you meant, just not something I ever considered although maybe I should. Even 2 of the same uniforms would be nice so I'm not dripping wet after sparring.

 

[miguksaram]

What is wrong with it is that by dressing "more Korean" you're distancing us from TaeKwonDo in my mind. These don't look anything like the TaeKwonDo dobok always has and I consider the Dobok part of our identity.

How does it distnace you from TKD? The uniforms don't look like the TKD dobok that you are familiar with, but then again, the uniform you are familiar with was not always what was associated wiht TKD? Prior to the v-neck everyone wore crossover doboks. Now you have TKD uniforms that are v-neck and different colors, but here is the thing, there are a lot of sport karate schools which also utilize the v-neck uniforms. So if anything this type of movement away from the v-neck will be separate into a unique identity of being TKD.

 

[miguksaram]

I knew what you meant, just not something I ever considered although maybe I should. Even 2 of the same uniforms would be nice so I'm not dripping wet after sparring.

Sparring is usually the last event on our plate. I am happy about that, since the forms and weapons helps warm me up before hand.

 

[MAist25]

Anyone know why the website lists 1-3 Dan as Master? Ive never heard of a 1st Dan ever being considered a master...

 

[andyjeffries]

Anyone know why the website lists 1-3 Dan as Master? Ive never heard of a 1st Dan ever being considered a master...

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/sh...e-Title-of-Sabun-Earned&p=1368376#post1368376

Puunui wrote:
"There was a statement from the Kukkiwon a while back that said that those who were 1st through 5th Dan were Master level, and those 6th Dan and higher were grandmaster level. I noticed after that came out, a whole lot more people started calling themselves Grandmaster. Personally I think it was a mistranslation between yudanja (1st-5th dan) and Kodanja (6th Dan and higher)."

 

[MAist25]

Thanks. I was also thinking it had something to do with a mistranslation as well. I was sure as hell hoping the WTF wasnt beginning to regard 1st Dans as masters.

 

[mastercole]

It was not a mistranslation. According to Kyong Myeong Lee, that main author of the Taekwondo information you find on the WTF, Kukkiwon, KTA and Korean Government websites and the Kukkiwon Textbook, it's correct. According to the Kukkiwon Jidoja Yunsuwon instructors academy, it's also correct. According to the WTF, posted by them on their own website, it is also correct.

Master does not mean instructor. Master is a courtesy title for Yudanja (1st Dan/Poom - 5th Dan), it's like Mister, or Ma'am. Grandmaster does not mean instructor. Grandmaster is a courtesy title for Kodanja (6th Dan - 9th Dan).

Sabum means "instructor."

Of course every instructor makes up their own rules for the culture inside their dojang. So it is common for Taekwondoin in the USA to believe that 4th, 5th, 6th or 7th Dan is when you magically become a "master" and that means you are an instructor at some school. But not at the Kukkiwon. You must for attend the instructors course, then pass the test. In order to do that, you have to hold Kukkiwon 4th Dan. Of course in the USA, anything goes, including fancy black belts with big red and gold stripes around the middle, gold uniforms, etc.

There is what people do at their own dojang, then there is what Kukkiwon does.

 

[puunui]

Master does not mean instructor. Master is a courtesy title for Yudanja (1st Dan/Poom - 5th Dan), it's like Mister, or Ma'am. Grandmaster does not mean instructor. Grandmaster is a courtesy title for Kodanja (6th Dan - 9th Dan).

What I meant by mistranslation was the yudanja usually translates to "dan holder" and kodanja usually translates to "old or senior dan holder".
It also gets a little confusing because the KTA and WTF had an International Master Instructor (Kukje Sabum) certification program from the 70's through the early 90s, and the recent Kukkiwon Instructor Course certificates say "Master Instructor" (Sabum) now.

 

[mastercole]

What I meant by mistranslation was the yudanja usually translates to "dan holder" and kodanja usually translates to "old or senior dan holder".
It also gets a little confusing because the KTA and WTF had an International Master Instructor (Kukje Sabum) certification program from the 70's through the early 90s, and the recent Kukkiwon Instructor Course certificates say "Master Instructor" (Sabum) now.

Oh. Actually I did not see your post, I should have quoted this post, that's what I was responding to

MAist25

Martial Talk

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[h=2]Re: WTF President : "New uniforms will further promote taekwondo"[/h]

Thanks. I was also thinking it had something to do with a mistranslation as well. I was sure as hell hoping the WTF wasnt beginning to regard 1st Dans as masters.​

 

[puunui]

Oh. Actually I did not see your post, I should have quoted this post, that's what I was responding to

No worries. I remember it was you who wrote to the Kukkiwon and found out the Master/Yudanja and Grandmaster/Kodanja connections. And when that went out, the number of grandmasters went shooting up, especially among american practitioners. However, I don't think those new grandmasters started referring to their 1st Dans as Master.

 

[mastercole]

No worries. I remember it was you who wrote to the Kukkiwon and found out the Master/Yudanja and Grandmaster/Kodanja connections. And when that went out, the number of grandmasters went shooting up, especially among american practitioners. However, I don't think those new grandmasters started referring to their 1st Dans as Master.

Interesting how that works When I pass that information on other instructors I get the same strong rejection I got 14 years ago when I came back to the USA from the Kukkiwon instructor course, and we started telling everyone about the Kukkiwon standards that GM Hae Man Park had already been showing you and others for years . I'm glad to see they like the grandmaster situation, hopefully they will extend the like courtesy to their own black belt students and begin to recognized them as master. I have been doing that in my schools for years.

 

[puunui]

When I pass that information on other instructors I get the same strong rejection I got 14 years ago when I came back to the USA from the Kukkiwon instructor course, and we started telling everyone about the Kukkiwon standards that GM Hae Man Park had already been showing you and others for years .

I'm kind of used to it at this point, people getting all mad at being exposed to a concept or idea that they don't like, at the moment, but then later that same concept becomes generally accepted. Short narrow stances is the example that always comes to mind.

I'm glad to see they like the grandmaster situation, hopefully they will extend the like courtesy to their own black belt students and begin to recognized them as master. I have been doing that in my schools for years.

I generally don't use titles at all for myself or my students, just first names is enough. For other people, I try to call them by the title that they themselves want to be called.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Since the links on previous pages do not seem to work, here is a picture. This is the dobok in question, is it not? If so, I like it. I think that it is a good change.

Regarding earlier comments about the curriculum needing to be addressed instead of the dobok, personally, I find nothing wrong with the curriculum as it is. If there are things that specific kwanjangs feel should be there, then there is nothing stopping you from working those things into your own curriculum.

Personally, I think that hard and solid training in the existing curriculum is plenty.

 

[dortiz]

"I'm kind of used to it at this point, people getting all mad at being exposed to a concept or idea that they don't like, at the moment, but then later that same concept becomes generally accepted."

I find people do this in general with everything. Even catch myself : )

Hopefully as Martial Artists we continue to improve ourselves and fight that reaction and evaluate things for what they are. As for Billy at work I think he will just react this way to new changes until he leaves....