Evolution in taekwondo

[dortiz]

http://www.jcalicu.com

Just go here and you can find them easily.

 

[MSUTKD]

In the case of the word "poomse" we have radically different meanings. Imagine a guy with an odd agenda trying to translate the old terms "poom" and "se" and selecting these meanings from the official CHINESE translations from the CHINESE / English dictionary:

http://www.mdbg.net/chindict/chindict.php?page=worddict&wdrst=1&wdqtm=0&wdqcham=1&wdqt=%E5%8B%A2

品 pǐn grade / to taste / to sample / to criticize / to judge / to size up

勢 shì outward appearance / male genitals

Brings a whole new meaning to "Poomse" competition!

I really do not want to go off thread but this really does deserve an explanation. Master Cole brings up a wonderful example of why you really need to study language instead of use the internet as your only translation device.

Master Cole has provided a link which will allow you to “define” characters.

http://www.mdbg.net/chindict/chindic...wdqt=勢

Looking at the term poomse 品勢(wow this word is so popular right now) he gets the following info:

“品 pǐn grade / to taste / to sample / to criticize / to judge / to size up

勢 shì outward appearance / male genitals

Brings a whole new meaning to "Poomse" competition!”


He is of course being funny but I can see his point. Try it yourself on the site and see. The basic thing that is not understood on sites like this is, like our dictionaries, there is much more info here but you would not know unless you were trained. Some of those “definitions” are pretty far down the list, hmm, why? How do you know which ones to pick, like our imaginary guy with an agenda?

This is actually a great example of the difficulty in translations of Chinese characters but this example also shows the importance of not using the internet but rather education and cultural info for translation. You really have to understand how Chinese is used as a language. It is very different than English and if you try to use “our language” to define it you will get confused.

“That’s nice Ron, but I still see [male genitals] in the “definitions” so how the heck are you going to explain that?

I’m glad you asked, but you know me….I talk a lot. Let’s use an example: Is anyone into athletics? (I hope ALL martial artists are athletes) One of my favorite sporting goods stores is, Dick’s. I really like Dick’s and go there as often as I can. Hey, why is everyone laughing? Try explaining to a foreigner why everyone is laughing. Look up “dick” in the dictionary and you will see multiple definitions but it is the context that lets you know which one to choose.

“So why the heck do I see [male genitals]?

For 勢 to mean [male genitals] it has to be used with another word, like….去

Try that one out in the link.

Wow, the info is a little different; it is talking about verbs and stuff now? Hmmmm. But the FIRST couple of “definitions” basically have something to do with taking away/removing, okay.

Now, let’s put去 with 勢 and get 去勢. Try that one and WOW!

Basically, it reads “castration”. Thanks Master Cole!

But WAIT! Click on the blue characters next to neutered. It shows the definintions and that second one does not say [male genitals]

I would define this word as, “removing your power”. THINK ABOUT IT…….. Got it!

THAT is how Chinese often works. Putting things together in certain combinations make an, for lack of a better word” inference/innuendo. The individual hanja never lost or changed its meaning.

 

[mastercole]

wrong location, moved the Taekkyon comment to other thread

 

[puunui]

I know sir and I respect you and everything you have to say.

Funny but that is exactly what the pioneers and seniors say to me. Too bad so many of my juniors don't feel the same way.

 

[puunui]

When you say "sabum" a Taekwondo teacher automatically comes to mind

I could be wrong but I believe that Taekwondo, or Tangsoodo back then was the first one to use the term sabum. It is contained in the korean language version of the Chung Do Kwan membership oath which was written in 1944.

- Korean's do not think of Sabum as a "teacher of teachers" even if you can find it in Hanja

I think an important point to understand is that words when in combination, mean different things. So taking a straight dictionary translation could lead someone down the wrong path. For example, we see the word "together" and think one think, but for an non-english speaker trying to break the word down into component parts such as "to get her" may get an entirely different meaning.

- ****you have to also know the intended meaning that Hanja was selected for.
This means you have to find out from the people who selected it as Hanja has radically
different meanings
- Jido Sabum in this situation seems to him to mean "Lead Instructor" or "Chief Instructor",
but again, he said you would have to ask the people who selected the term to find it's
intended meaning

I think this is the step that most people do not do, which leads to the most misunderstandings, in my opinion. They see something then jump to all sorts of conclusions based on their own non-korean value and belief system. But when you are attempting to understand what someone did and why, then it is best to find out, from their perspective, not ours.

 

[puunui]

Now you have stated that Taekwondo seniors (your seniors or my seniors?) fabricated Taekwondo history. What are the names of the senors that fabricated Taekwondo history? What specific history was fabricated?

I asked sort of the same questions, but never got a response. Perhaps you will have better luck than me.

 

[StudentCarl]

I believe Master Cole has found the translation for that special feeling of getting kicked in the groin.

 

[puunui]

Ron and Puunui, I'd like to take this discussion onto Taekwondo-net. We have thousands of dedicated Taekwondoin that would like to see this discussion.

I think MT and tkd net are geared towards different audiences. Sometimes I think that you and I don't belong here, that we upset the apple cart every time we discuss our perspectives, our studies or our experiences. One person even told me that if they believed everything that I wrote, then that would mean that what they are doing, from the uniform that they wear to the terminology that they use to the way they do poomsae or sparring, basically everything, is wrong.

A large part of taekwondo net on the other hand, are seniors from the highest levels of taekwondo. You post something on taekwondo net, and your name, thoughts and writings will be read by people like Dr. Un Yong Kim, the majority of USTU past presidents as well as the presidents of many WTF MNA worldwide, WTF secretariat, IOC members, IRs including several Olympic IRs, the Kukkiwon, KTA, teaching faculty of chae dae, Samsang S1 Team, etc.

 

[puunui]

There many other sites like it, but keep in mind we are talking about KOREAN use of these terms, not exactly CHINESE, thought they are often the same. So it is good to supplement your CHINESE Word & Character dictionary with an "Everyday Hanja" reference as well.

That is also a good point. The same words in Japanese or Chinese may have different usage and inferences than Korean usage. For example the terms Sabum and Kyosa. In Japanese, Sabum is pronounced Shihan and Kyosa is Kyoshi. These are generally looked upon as the highest titles that one can receive in the Japanese martial arts. However, in Taekwondo usage, these are considered now to be the lowest titles to be used, surpassed by Kwan Jang, etc. Different country, different usage and meaning.

 

[puunui]

Keep the discussion here. There are thousands of dedicated Taekwondoin following it here too.

I don't think there are thousands viewing the discussions here, if you go by the number of page views per topic.

 

[TaekwondoDad]

I think MT and tkd net are geared towards different audiences. Sometimes I think that you and I don't belong here, that we upset the apple cart every time we discuss our perspectives, our studies or our experiences. One person even told me that if they believed everything that I wrote, then that would mean that what they are doing, from the uniform that they wear to the terminology that they use to the way they do poomsae or sparring, basically everything, is wrong.

A large part of taekwondo net on the other hand, are seniors from the highest levels of taekwondo. You post something on taekwondo net, and your name, thoughts and writings will be read by people like Dr. Un Yong Kim, the majority of USTU past presidents as well as the presidents of many WTF MNA worldwide, WTF secretariat, IOC members, IRs including several Olympic IRs, the Kukkiwon, KTA, teaching faculty of chae dae, Samsang S1 Team, etc.

Is tkd net an open forum? Can you give me the url?

 

[puunui]

Is tkd net an open forum? Can you give me the url?

No it is not an open forum and there is no url.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I asked sort of the same questions, but never got a response. Perhaps you will have better luck than me.

I suspect that there are no specific names to be had. It seems that the idea that TKD has a fabricated history is fairly pervasive among some/many members of some MA boards, regardless of factual merit to the statement.

Daniel

 

[MSUTKD]

Funny but that is exactly what the pioneers and seniors say to me. Too bad so many of my juniors don't feel the same way.

Sir,

My teacher, jongoon Kim, told me - Never expect respect, don't cry if you do not get it but rather always attempt to earn it.

He also told me that if I thought I was trying and I still was not getting it, the problem was then ME, not them.

 

[puunui]

My teacher, jongoon Kim, told me - Never expect respect, don't cry if you do not get it but rather always attempt to earn it.

He also told me that if I thought I was trying and I still was not getting it, the problem was then ME, not them.

I wasn't really expecting respect or even attempting to "earn it"; in fact on message boards like this, given how sometimes radically different my viewpoint is to the mainstream American view, I expect disrespect. I was just pointing out how differently I am viewed by my seniors and teachers vs. some juniors out there. That's all.

 

[dortiz]

"fabricated history"

Oh Come on. I love and respect my seniors too. And I totally get a people who suffered and held great pride and why they would want to give greater truth to some truths. But lets cut the crap. From the Kukkiwon to every school out there the magical 2000 plus history with the cave figures yada yada yada was being propagated and almost by everyone. And it was not just TKD in HKD Myungs first book had Choi coming out of 9 years in a cave with great revelations. Suddenly sword fighting went back to ancient times. I watched as my Judo logo in our school suddenly became a Yudo sign and shortly after brochures had tales of ancient times and great wrestling matches.
Everyone got on board the sense of pride but yes it was mostly made up.
Oops, now everyone knows so who cares. Still great arts being done with the Korean flavors that make them better ; )

 

[puunui]

"fabricated history"

Oh Come on. I love and respect my seniors too. And I totally get a people who suffered and held great pride and why they would want to give greater truth to some truths. But lets cut the crap. From the Kukkiwon to every school out there the magical 2000 plus history with the cave figures yada yada yada was being propagated and almost by everyone. And it was not just TKD in HKD Myungs first book had Choi coming out of 9 years in a cave with great revelations. Suddenly sword fighting went back to ancient times. I watched as my Judo logo in our school suddenly became a Yudo sign and shortly after brochures had tales of ancient times and great wrestling matches.
Everyone got on board the sense of pride but yes it was mostly made up.
Oops, now everyone knows so who cares. Still great arts being done with the Korean flavors that make them better ; )

I don't know about Hapkido or Judo, but you have expressed what many feel about those historical references. But try looking at it from the other perspective, outside of your own. What point was Dr. Un Yong Kim and the pioneers trying to get across, given the context of when those statements were first made and the audience that it was being made to?

 

[MSUTKD]

I don't know about Hapkido or Judo, but you have expressed what many feel about those historical references. But try looking at it from the other perspective, outside of your own. What point was Dr. Un Yong Kim and the pioneers trying to get across, given the context of when those statements were first made and the audience that it was being made to?

I totally agree with you, from their point of view they had to organize and somehow unify martial arts. They had to be nationalistic. Dr. Kim did something that was amazing and really had singular vision. Without him this would all be very different. However, to build the framework they used distorted propaganda and enforced it to dogma. The foundation looks bad because we can all see though it now. I really think that Steve Capener hit the nail on the head with his old paper:

http://www.eagletkd.com/images/STUDENT FORUM from Korea Journal.pdf

This art and the people in it need to evolve now, if we don't then the weak foundation might fall. This does not mean let go of the past at all, it means know the past and learn from it. Don't try to fabricate information but celebrate the lineages and history that Taekwondo is NOW!

 

[puunui]

I totally agree with you, from their point of view they had to organize and somehow unify martial arts. They had to be nationalistic. Dr. Kim did something that was amazing and really had singular vision. Without him this would all be very different. However, to build the framework they used distorted propaganda and enforced it to dogma. The foundation looks bad because we can all see though it now.

That wasn't really the context that I was speaking about. The context that I was talking about occurred at an IOC meeting.

I really think that Steve Capener hit the nail on the head with his old paper:
http://www.eagletkd.com/images/STUDENT FORUM from Korea Journal.pdf

There is a lot of factual errors in that paper, which was written in 1995, so much so that it throws the whole premise of his thesis into question. Given all of the historical information that has come out since that paper was written, I seriously wonder whether Steve Capener still feels the same way today.

This art and the people in it need to evolve now, if we don't then the weak foundation might fall. This does not mean let go of the past at all, it means know the past and learn from it. Don't try to fabricate information but celebrate the lineages and history that Taekwondo is NOW!

I disagree that Taekwondo has a weak foundation. I think it has a strong foundation, much stronger than even JKA Karate. If Taekwondo were weak in anyway as a martial art, I would have discontinued my study and practice a long time ago. The strongest part of Taekwondo's foundation, in my opinion, was the idea that those of so many varied paths, interests, strengths and weaknesses could all work together to help create something beautiful. I think this is true at the kwan level, KTA, Kukkiwon, USTU, and WTF, at least up to about 2004. It was like watching an orchestra or a football team execute in concert. That is Taekwondo's strength, something that Karate could never really accomplish on the same sort of scale. It too had many talented leaders; however, they could never get it together to take karate to the next level. If they had, there really would have been no room for Taekwondo to develop in the way that it did. Our Korean born seniors and pioneers observed the failings of Karate and made a conscious decision not to follow in its footsteps. They took the good parts of Karate, avoided the pitfalls, and in doing so, created something that really is the envy on the martial arts world.

I do agree that Taekwondoin, especially in the US, have to evolve past their own preconceived ideas and prejudices in looking towards the present and the future. Thinking that our seniors have fabricated history is certainly not a good starting point, in my opinion.

By the way, I have some pending questions to you. Do you plan to answer, or should I stop hoping I will get a reply?

 

[MSUTKD]

That is also a good point. The same words in Japanese or Chinese may have different usage and inferences than Korean usage. For example the terms Sabum and Kyosa. In Japanese, Sabum is pronounced Shihan and Kyosa is Kyoshi. These are generally looked upon as the highest titles that one can receive in the Japanese martial arts. However, in Taekwondo usage, these are considered now to be the lowest titles to be used, surpassed by Kwan Jang, etc. Different country, different usage and meaning.

Sir,
Not exactly true. There is no inference of status,"now being the lowest titles". Different country, correct. Different usage, somewhat correct. Different meaning, incorrect.
It is clear you do not understand hanja. Please read my response to Master Cole and using the internet to translate. Not that you did that here but it give a better picture of the structure of hanja.