It is the same hanja, but used differently in different countries. I'm not making a judgment on the use of either one, just pointing out the facts. I leave the judgmental stuff to others.
Evolution in taekwondo
- Thread starter MSUTKD
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It is the same hanja, but used differently in different countries. I'm not making a judgment on the use of either one, just pointing out the facts. I leave the judgmental stuff to others.
That's why we are both here. Some people really don't like that. You should see some of the PMs flying around from the same people egging others on to attack and discredit us or to report us for whatever violation they think we committed. Part of me thinks it may be better if they succeed in getting us kicked off so we don't have to deal with it. Then the discussions can go back to "I hate and don't need the Kukkiwon" or "General Choi is the founder" or "History is fabricated" and no one will challenge it. But who really loses if that happens? Mastercole and I? I don't think so.
No, it's women too.
They actually do do these things, if you think about it.
Go out and meet them. They are out there. Miguksaram is still in Korea I believe, but he will tell you that he experienced all of the above going on a trip to Korea sponsored by USTC and the Korean Government. Had I been a member of MT back then, I probably would have invited you, for the diversity that you bring.
No it doesn't. Never said it did.
If you ever actually meet Mastercole and I, you will come to understand that the both of us are actually very normal people. If you saw either of us on the street, you would probably simply walk past the both us and would probably never know that either of us practiced any type of martial art. The only real difference is that both of us were unsatisfied with accepting the status quo out there, and instead went out and found out for ourselves what really happened, and why. On technical matters we try very hard to follow the latest cutting edge training methods and strategies, which we obtain from cutting edge people. We both try to as little as possible to interject ourselves into the equation, because we both realize that doing that always dilutes the meaning and the message. It is difficult to not want to add your own stuff into it, but that is the only way to understand things from the pioneers and the creator's view, which is what we try to share. If you are not interested in what the pioneers' thoughts and actions actually were, which we both know because we actually sat down and asked them, then you will have no need or use for either of us.
if you don't understand something, it would be best to ask questions.
tinker1
Green Belt
Really? I guess I've lived in a bubble... titles used around me have always been of Korean origin...
(pardon my spelling, I am going with my american accented phonetics here)
Cho go nim
Bu Sah bu nim
Sah bu num
Bu Kwan jang nim
Kwan jang nim
Beyond those I don't know.
I've always been of the opinion that using Japanese terms for Koreans was an insult...
I don't know what Chogonim means. Perhaps it is the korean pronunciation of Shogun. That would be interesting.
Sabum is pronounced Shihan in Japanese. Kwanjang is pronounced Kancho in Japanese. No one is talking about using the Japanese pronunciation in a KMA school; what we are talking about is using korean pronunciations of titles which are also used in Japanese Martial Arts schools, shihan (sabum) and kancho (kwanjang) being two examples which you are familiar with.
When I first began teaching kumdo for GM Kim, he said that I was now 'kyosa.' When I reached sadan, he said that I was sabeom. Other KMA schools and sites have used the term to refer to a general teacher.It is the same hanja, but used differently in different countries. I'm not making a judgment on the use of either one, just pointing out the facts. I leave the judgmental stuff to others.
I did not make the connection with kyoshi until reading this thread.
So far as I know, the kanji for kyoshi is 教士. An ITF site that I referenced in another post when trying to answer a question for Terry listed it as this: 敎師. According to Wikipedia, this kanji is also pronounced kyoshi but is considered more modest than sensei.
So perhaps kyosa is not the same hanja as the kyoshi that you are thinking of?
Daniel
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tinker1
Green Belt
That was the terminology I learned from GM Dan Choi... GM Kim & GM Koo both seemed ok with it.
Chogo nim was intended to mean "student instructor", basically below 2nd dan.
I don't know; I really enjoy their perspective. It is one that is different from many others here, and as Terry Lamar pointed out, they do tend to be ready with citations to support what they say.
Do I always agree with them? No. But nobody always agrees with anybody. I do feel that Glenn and Master Cole have been very good for this section of MT. Glenn in particular has been pretty consistent in participating in discussions here, and while some complain that conversations keep going into academic historical discussions, I'd rather that than the same tired threads of 'USAT sucks' and 'Sport vs. art.'
One of the reasons that I participate here is because I desire to learn. Glenn and Master Cole bring a depth of knowledge that is hard to find and a perspective that differs from that of others here.
We all have a different perspective and a different experience. I feel that Glenn and Master Cole do a great deal to enrich this section.
There are others here who's posts I hold in equally high regard (Master Weis comes to mind). I cannot offer that perspective to others; it is not mine to offer. But they can.
Just my thoughts.
Daniel
ralphmcpherson
Senior Master
I think almost all here would agree with that Daniel. I am surprised that according to puunui there are people sending around PM's rgarding him and mastercole. I certainly have not been sent any, nor would I send any, despite rarely agreeing with them. If there really are PM's doing the rounds it would surprise me.
I don't think in terms of hanja when thinking about the term kyosa. I think of the english word, which is how I see it used most often. I do not use the term myself. Given the fact that we use the term sabum (shihan), I would think that the hanja would be the same as Kyoshi used in japanese martial arts. Perhaps the ITF uses different hanja. Kyosa isn't an official term at least not by the Kukkiwon but rather one that has been adopted by individual dojang. I will try to look up the hanja in my korean language martial arts books. I think of the term kyoshi as being higher than sensei, which is more generic in my mind. The term sensei is used in a lot of different circumstances in japanese culture, and not just in the teacher student context. For example, a worker may address his or her boss as sensei at work. When I think of kyoshi, I think of kyoju dairi or menkyo kaiden ranking or titles.
People get overwrought. If I don't like what someone is saying, I just ignore them. If I really feel strongly enough or if I feel that it might be a worthwhile exchange, I may voice my disagreement to them directly, either on the topic in question or via a pm to them.
Most of the time, I am happy to just sit back and read what they have to say. Them and others. Being a social creature, I do tend to jump in now and then to participate. But I also try to take advantage of the fact that people with a lot more knowledge than myself are posting by simply reading what they have to say, and sometimes asking questions.
Also, people take things way to personally and way too seriously.
Daniel
ralphmcpherson
Senior Master
I couldnt agree more, places like these should be somewhere you can come and relax and do some reading. If it gets to the point where things are getting taken personally/seriously then I think people are missing the point of coming here in the first place. It still does surprise me that people send PM's behind people's backs. If I had a real problem with something somebody was saying I would PM them direct. But in a couple of years of coming here it has never come to that. Realistically, with any forum, you can pretty quickly work out which posters are worth listening to and which ones arent.
Sending PMS back and forth, to attack, discuss or attempt to discredit a person, especially for something they are saying on the open boards, is to say the list childish. I believe in open discussion and I think that's the reason I really like MT. Frustration of course sets in when topics regurgitate for too long without moving forward or are thrown off the tracks so deep that we all forget what the original discussion was all about. That was my state of mind in my earlier post and I'm glad you Master Cole, MSTUKD, and other knowledgeable folk continue to post on MT and discuss new and tough topics despite the distractions.
tinker1
Green Belt
This sort of thing is almost inevitable on forums like this. It's a sad truth.
People disagree, and without the possibility of a face to face confrontation they start sniping at each other.
For myself, there's a lot of threads that I just don't look at.. either it's something that's likely to upset me and/or it's something I don't give two shakes about.
It's hard to not feel attacked by someones snarky comments to something you write. It's common to want to retaliate.
Easy for me to say since I'm not involved here - but it's best to just walk away from situations like this.
People disagree, and without the possibility of a face to face confrontation they start sniping at each other.
For myself, there's a lot of threads that I just don't look at.. either it's something that's likely to upset me and/or it's something I don't give two shakes about.
It's hard to not feel attacked by someones snarky comments to something you write. It's common to want to retaliate.
Easy for me to say since I'm not involved here - but it's best to just walk away from situations like this.
mastercole
Master Black Belt
puunui wrote: "We both try to as little as possible to interject ourselves into the equation, because we both realize that doing that always dilutes the meaning and the message."
I think this is what many people who read what you and I write don't know, don't realize or don't take into consideration. We are usually quoting something we heard from the people who formulated Taekwondo.
It's like coming back to the USA after attending the early Kukkiwon instructor courses and explaining to the USA Taekwondo community that Kukkiwon is explaining the Poomsae with a more narrow, shorter stance and more compact motion that what is currently winning at the US National Championships. It might take 10 years to be accepted.
I think this is what many people who read what you and I write don't know, don't realize or don't take into consideration. We are usually quoting something we heard from the people who formulated Taekwondo.
It's like coming back to the USA after attending the early Kukkiwon instructor courses and explaining to the USA Taekwondo community that Kukkiwon is explaining the Poomsae with a more narrow, shorter stance and more compact motion that what is currently winning at the US National Championships. It might take 10 years to be accepted.
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