Women’s versus men’s self-defense?

[GreenieMeanie]

My apologies, was just playing to the every thread needs a joke sentiment.

Appreciate it, just this thread is becoming a men’s locker room discussion on women’s self-defense, with little grounding in reality.

 

[Badhabits]

My personal view is that most women would have a better chance physically defending themselves from a male using grappling. I've known very very few women even in martial arts that I've felt could really come out on top trying to use striking against a man. However I've rolled with plenty of women who could dominate men using grappling. Could be wrong, but it seems that men will also grab/choke/push to ground etc a woman more often which play right into grappling.

 

[Mallic]

My personal view is that most women would have a better chance physically defending themselves from a male using grappling. I've known very very few women even in martial arts that I've felt could really come out on top trying to use striking against a man. However I've rolled with plenty of women who could dominate men using grappling. Could be wrong, but it seems that men will also grab/choke/push to ground etc a woman more often which play right into grappling.

A singular punch yes. However I have to imagine something like swarmer boxing would be very useful and wing Chun is similar and was developed by a woman.

 

[HighKick]

So, you want to have a self defense discussion, that does not include discussion of law or the legal difference between harassment and assault???

You do realize that in many places, if a woman is being assaulted she has different options available to her than if she is being harassed? I know of very few places where a person can respond with lethal force for being harassed... while there are many places where a person being assaulted would have the option to legally respond with lethal force.

When talking on a board such as this, where people from all over the world may be reading.... I think it is good to encourage people to research the law, where they are. I think it is good to understand the use of force law, when lethal force can be used and when you need to stop.

If you are teaching a local class, then you need to be the one to do the research, so that you can teach the appropriate points to your class.

Two things to note;
Sex would have zero relevance in your post.
Self defense does not Automatically mean Lethal Force.

 

[HighKick]

All true.

All true. However, I would like to keep this discussion focused on the specific kinds of threats women are most likely to face, and the relevant tactical, techniques, and procedures for dealing them, including but not limited to:

—Drink spiking

—Assault or rape by peer, friend, or family

—Stalking

—Anti-surveillance

—When to use hands, OC, and lethal weapons

—Knife sheathe placement

Drinking or spiking completely changes the dynamic. There is no way to predict what is the 'best' self defense for a woman when she is plastered, sans having a friend close . This is universally true for either sex (yes, there is only two).

Much of your list is SA and preparedness. It is a fundamental part of teaching/learning self-defense.

When I was actively teaching (2-school owner) and a LEO, I taught a women's and young adults SD class for about 30-years. It evolved over time, but there are some identifiable constants.
Don't make yourself easy prey is always job number one. Naturally, getting drunk at the bar by yourself would be a big one here.
Know your environment.
If it comes down to a fight or assault, there are no rules. This is still the hardest thing for some women to wrap their head around due to centuries of social conditioning. We have a LOT of active drills to expose a person the live attacks.
Yes, for women strength will most always be at a disadvantage so it is critical to recognize the situation and react first if necessary. Women usually have the speed advantage.

I always had sessions that included either a D.A., judge, or local lawyer to discuss liability. But legalities are always pretty low on the list when it comes to protecting yourself. And yes, there is a lot of 'coaching' on how things are said in a court of law. But hopefully, you understand this has zero to do with actually protecting yourself in the moment of an attack.

 

[GreenieMeanie]

Drinking or spiking completely changes the dynamic. There is no way to predict what is the 'best' self defense for a woman when she is plastered, sans having a friend close . This is universally true for either sex (yes, there is only two).

Much of your list is SA and preparedness. It is a fundamental part of teaching/learning self-defense.

When I was actively teaching (2-school owner) and a LEO, I taught a women's and young adults SD class for about 30-years. It evolved over time, but there are some identifiable constants.
Don't make yourself easy prey is always job number one. Naturally, getting drunk at the bar by yourself would be a big one here.
Know your environment.
If it comes down to a fight or assault, there are no rules. This is still the hardest thing for some women to wrap their head around due to centuries of social conditioning. We have a LOT of active drills to expose a person the live attacks.
Yes, for women strength will most always be at a disadvantage so it is critical to recognize the situation and react first if necessary. Women usually have the speed advantage.

I always had sessions that included either a D.A., judge, or local lawyer to discuss liability. But legalities are always pretty low on the list when it comes to protecting yourself. And yes, there is a lot of 'coaching' on how things are said in a court of law. But hopefully, you understand this has zero to do with actually protecting yourself in the moment of an attack.

Yeah, I wouldn’t expect anything to be done once a drug is in play, at least not for the average person.

Could you elaborate on the speed advantage? Did you observe any particular trucks carrying weapons?

 

[Buka]

What an interesting thread.

 

[Steve]

What an interesting thread.

Is that sarcasm?

 

[Buka]

Some thoughts…if a dojo doesn’t feature contact fighting against resistance, it’s likely that the dojo’s stance towards self defense has a similar mindset.

If a dojo teaches Self Defense, women should not spar, or roll, against women unless that’s the only option.

Unless I missed it, there was no mention of Kata as a self defense exercise. I found that odd but not surprising.

We’re all different, but I believe we’re all trying our best to train and teach others how to become physically and mentally strong and learn to survive and thrive in today’s crazy world.

 

[Buka]

Is that sarcasm?

Nah.

 

[Mallic]

Some thoughts…if a dojo doesn’t feature contact fighting against resistance, it’s likely that the dojo’s stance towards self defense has a similar mindset.

If a dojo teaches Self Defense, women should not spar, or roll, against women unless that’s the only option.

Unless I missed it, there was no mention of Kata as a self defense exercise. I found that odd but not surprising.

We’re all different, but I believe we’re all trying our best to train and teach others how to become physically and mentally strong and learn to survive and thrive in today’s crazy world.

In that case I'd argue that their time would be better spent working on their cardio or something else, cause the whole point of learning to fight is having the ability TO resist. If you've already decided you can't effectively before the fight even starts there's no point in wasting time teaching someone the means to do so.

 

[marvin8]

All true.

All true. However, I would like to keep this discussion focused on the specific kinds of threats women are most likely to face, and the relevant tactical, techniques, and procedures for dealing them, including but not limited to:...

—When to use hands, OC, and lethal weapons

If one is concerned about hesitation and going to prison for life, then knowing local laws are a consideration. Often, a woman is at a disparity of force when attacked by a male. So, weapons can equalize that force.

 

[hoshin1600]

This thread quickly devolved into a sociological discussion. I read the OP as pertaining to self-defense, not the causes of violence, women's issues, situational awareness, conflict avoidance, etc. These are worthwhile topics but have nothing to do with self-defense - the actual employment of technique against imminent physical attack. In other words, martial arts.

" worthwhile topics but have nothing to do with self-defense,... are you so sure? )
I would make a case that focusing on tactics without understanding strategy ends in poor outcomes.
Women and men are different in priorities and choices. These are closely linked to the strategies each sex uses. Using a very general guideline (yes, there is overlap to a degree) men use short term strategies and Women use long term. Men want to "win" and will Hulk smash everything to achieve victory. Women , not so much. Women are more subtle and look for long term solutions.

Strategy determines tactics. This is where men often fail when training Women. Men have unspoken understanding on their strategies. We are usually not even aware of them. We then take the tactics that fit our strategy and try to wedge it onto female strategies. This is like putting a horses head on a fish. Those tactics will fail for the Women. If we understand the strategies that Women natural gravitate to, then we can be better at working in tactics that fit.
What strategies and tactics work?
Know your enemy. Know their tactics and their Modus Operandi.
This brings me back to my first post: To have a serious conversation about women's self defense we need to be specific about the threats they face.
This is not meant as social commentary. It's combat 101. Hulk smash is not always the best approach.
Only after you understand strategy do you discuss tactics.
If you get it, we can now move to tactics.

 

[Mallic]

" worthwhile topics but have nothing to do with self-defense,... are you so sure? )
I would make a case that focusing on tactics without understanding strategy ends in poor outcomes.
Women and men are different in priorities and choices. These are closely linked to the strategies each sex uses. Using a very general guideline (yes, there is overlap to a degree) men use short term strategies and Women use long term. Men want to "win" and will Hulk smash everything to achieve victory. Women , not so much. Women are more subtle and look for long term solutions.

Strategy determines tactics. This is where men often fail when training Women. Men have unspoken understanding on their strategies. We are usually not even aware of them. We then take the tactics that fit our strategy and try to wedge it onto female strategies. This is like putting a horses head on a fish. Those tactics will fail for the Women. If we understand the strategies that Women natural gravitate to, then we can be better at working in tactics that fit.
What strategies and tactics work?
Know your enemy. Know their tactics and their Modus Operandi.
This brings me back to my first post: To have a serious conversation about women's self defense we need to be specific about the threats they face.
This is not meant as social commentary. It's combat 101. Hulk smash is not always the best approach.
Only after you understand strategy do you discuss tactics.
If you get it, we can now move to tactics.

I humbly disagree. I do not see combat as a primary tactic, only something that one must prepare for. If one cannot come to a resolution, conflict inevitably follows, this is just a reality of things.

And since you brought up long term solutions, we should probably establish what does that actually mean? Let's start with a basic definition of both.

Short term solutions mean dealing with a problem when it presents itself.
Long term solutions means making sure a problem never comes up in the first place.

And while planning ahead is commendable, there will always be situations where things simply can't be helped and you need to deal with the problem NOW.

But long term could mean a number of things, running and avoiding your problems could be considered a long term option, Manipulation is another one as it could be considered a long term option to only allow those who are weak willed and easy to control to get close to you, or if you REALLY wanna get dark, making sure someone is never a threat to your well being again either by completely destroying them socially and financially or just straight up, offing them in their sleep, what better long term solution then that?

So I ask again what do you mean by long term exactly?

 

[hoshin1600]

Often we discuss things like awareness, de-escalation, and the like. Some people dismiss the importance of these things. What are they really and how are they used? In combatives speak these are Advantageous Positioning in the Theater of Combat.
Assaults on women are often veiled with a smile and redirection of intent. A women would not respond with "are you talking to me? What do you think your looking at,"
A woman's response should be equally veiled. This allows better positioning for the advantage.

 

[Mallic]

Assaults on women are often veiled with a smile and redirection of intent. A women would not respond with "are you talking to me? What do you think your looking at,"

If you want my honest opinion they should. Most people who would even attempt this generally are gonna go after women who look like they will put up a fight. They are cowards at there core, and even bluffing can be enough to make a potential attacker back down.

There's a reason why the lions share of women I found myself respecting and getting along with end up being some flavor of tomboy.

 

[hoshin1600]

Long term solutions means making sure a problem never comes up in the first place.

So I ask again what do you mean by long term exactly?

Long term solutions are not equal to hind sight or avoidance.
Long term solution is a course of action that takes into account the ramifications and consequences of your actions. Men do this too but women are more inclined to it. If someone verbally accosted you, using a firearm would not be good for your long term well being. As I already stated a women will choose to accept sexual assault if the long term outcome will be a better for her child or feels the alternative would have a worse outcome.

 

[Mallic]

Long term solutions are not equal to hind sight or avoidance.
Long term solution is a course of action that takes into account the ramifications and consequences of your actions. Men do this too but women are more inclined to it. If someone verbally accosted you, using a firearm would not be good for your long term well being. As I already stated a women will choose to accept sexual assault if the long term outcome will be a better for her child or feels the alternative would have a worse outcome.

Yes and all she'd have to do is live with the trauma, humiliation and shame of the experience.

 

[isshinryuronin]

Pertaining to women's self-defense, here is a short general outline of what I think are the general elements:

DEFENSE: A woman (or small man) to be caught in a bigger and stronger opponent's arms is the LAST thing they would want to do IMO, unless they are expert at judo or other grappling art. I would go so far as to say that their major strategy should be built around this idea. Normally, one wants to avoid the opponent's advantages.

OFFENSE: A weaker defender should seek out the most sensitive targets: Eyes, nose, throat, fingers, groin and side of knee. Scratching and biting are good too. TKD type kicks can be strong attacks while staying out of the opponent's grappling range.

TACTICS: As most male attackers view a female as little threat, they will be apt to close using less caution and not in a guarded posture. Accordingly, they can be enticed to get in range of strikes as listed above and not have defense in mind. At this point, the defender should launch a sudden and furious attack, continuing until they have a good opportunity to escape, or if not possible, until the attacker is effectively removed as a threat.

TRAINING, Mental: This is probably the most difficult part for most females - overcoming their natural aversion to physical violence and lack of confidence. All training should be done with ferocity and incremental difficulty to build confidence in the result.

TRAINING, Physical: Heavy bag to practice knees, palm heels (I favor these over punches as females have a more delicate bone structure and it lessens the weak wrist joint as a factor) kicks and elbows. Softer targets to practice finger thrusts to eyes and throat. Concentration on power delivery. Partner drills with a well-padded (including face mask) attacker allowing realistic scenarios with gradual increasing resistance.

INSTRUCTOR: Aside from teaching technique execution, the teacher must keep the lesson rather intense, physically and mentally. Their other main job is to make sure the partners are not giving up or taking a dive too easily beyond the first few lessons.

 

[Mallic]

Pertaining to women's self-defense, here is a short general outline of what I think are the general elements:

DEFENSE: A woman (or small man) to be caught in a bigger and stronger opponent's arms is the LAST thing they would want to do IMO, unless they are expert at judo or other grappling art. I would go so far as to say that their major strategy should be built around this idea. Normally, one wants to avoid the opponent's advantages.

OFFENSE: A weaker defender should seek out the most sensitive targets: Eyes, nose, throat, fingers, groin and side of knee. Scratching and biting are good too. TKD type kicks can be strong attacks while staying out of the opponent's grappling range.

TACTICS: As most male attackers view a female as little threat, they will be apt to close using less caution and not in a guarded posture. Accordingly, they can be enticed to get in range of strikes as listed above and not have defense in mind. At this point, the defender should launch a sudden and furious attack, continuing until they have a good opportunity to escape, or if not possible, until the attacker is effectively removed as a threat.

TRAINING, Mental: This is probably the most difficult part for most females - overcoming their natural aversion to physical violence and lack of confidence. All training should be done with ferocity and incremental difficulty to build confidence in the result.

TRAINING, Physical: Heavy bag to practice knees, palm heels (I favor these over punches as females have a more delicate bone structure and it lessens the weak wrist joint as a factor) kicks and elbows. Softer targets to practice finger thrusts to eyes and throat. Concentration on power delivery. Partner drills with a well-padded (including face mask) attacker allowing realistic scenarios with gradual increasing resistance.

INSTRUCTOR: Aside from teaching technique execution, the teacher must keep the lesson rather intense, physically and mentally. Their other main job is to make sure the partners are not giving up or taking a dive too easily beyond the first few lessons.

I agree with all of this. One should always play to their strengths, it's why I suggest maybe out boxing would be good for women to generally look into.