Women’s versus men’s self-defense?

[GreenieMeanie]

Sometimes I wonder why I choose to wade into the cesspool of these type conversations but here we go again.
For starters I see no attempt to define and categorize the different types of threats that actually exist other than the comment about family and friends. Any serious conversation would start there and build from there. Without that this entire thread is going nowhere.
Second I don't think people want the truth, especially in a thread like this. It's more fun to be in a world of make believe and fantasize about training ( or maybe being in some cases) some bad *** Be,atch..
Here is the truth. Women already know the answer about drink spiking. DONT GO TO BARS AND DRINK. If your going to take that risk you go out with friends who have your back. You don't leave your drink unattended and stick with a bottle where you can keep your thumb over the top. Yeah, someone is going to try to tell me about how the bartender could be in on it, yes sure, go back to the first rule, Don't Drink. Statistically speaking most sexual assault and violence happens when both parties are under the influence. Problem solved.

SEXUAL ASSAULT BY FAMILY OR CLOSE FRIEND:
Ok you want the actual truth? martial arts is not the solution for this problem. In fact it is so low on the scale of importance that it's not on the list. Combative skills, knife work, guns, less lethal options, nope none are on the list of priorities. In most cases (as an adult) the real answer is years of therapy that should take place long before the assault so you are in a better emotional place so it never happens. And in many cases I would add the word "again" to that statement. Victims during childhood are far more likely to experience repeating assaults throughout their lives from multiple attackers. Good therapy will allow people to see the patterns of grooming that happens long before the assault.

STALKING: Yeah kinda the same advise. most perpetrators are from a past relationship. Get counseling to figure out why you are repeatedly getting into relationships with narcissistic men with violent tendencies. These never end well, most often homicide. Martial arts, ect ect .... not the appropriate answer.
Now there may be cases of stalking from unknown assailants. Example would be someone famous with a deranged fan. In this case I would advise top notch home security and a firearm. Oh you live in a country that outlawed firearms? Well your SOL. follow your governments solution, call the police and wait.

ANTI- what ever you want to call it:
I call BS on this one, if your not military or law enforcement. Only crazy people walk around throughout their day looking for possible threats.
Truth, it takes too much mental energy and an obsessive compulsive personality to do this. Normal people will get tired of it after a few hours. Just listen to your gut instincts. Your brain is collecting more data than your frontal Cortex can process. Your intuition is actually collected data that is being recognized by other parts of your brain. You don't need to do anything fancy or special training. You only need to listen and act on it.

WHEN TO USE force ..BLAH BLAH BLAH:
this is very specific to local laws. It's already written down in law. However it's not that simple. This is very straightforward a matter for legal advise.

Those are my general thoughts. Most conversation on women's self defense, when discussed by men fail to understand the actual issues women face. It's mostly fantasy talk. Men can't understand. It's like arguing the When Harry met Sally troupe. Can men and women be friends? It's a circular argument with no end that will never have any sort of agreement.

Alright…tell me how you REALLY FEEL

In all seriousness, this is the direction I want this convo to head in, none of the academic and philosophical BS.

I got a copy of Kelly Sayre’s Sharp Women, which argues much of what you’re saying, and I agree with it. She heavily discusses enforcement of boundaries, but does not however discuss use of force. I do want a more technical discussion.

I use the term “anti-surveillance,” because people like to throw around the phrase “situational awareness,” but don’t really know what that means. Behavioral analysis, profiling, Left of Bang, Right of Bang, Anti-surveillance, counter-surveillance, all refer to specific things under that umbrella.

Well…if you’re a woman being choked slammed in mount, having your clothes torn, I think most people in most cultures would tell you it’s stabbing time.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Sometimes I wonder why I choose to wade into the cesspool of these type conversations but here we go again.

I had my fill. Have fun

 

[drop bear]

Shivworks does teach it, and I suppose they popularized it in the combatives community, but they are one of many with that approach. It seems to be the default, and I don’t see anyone with a better idea.

Also grappling gyms technically teach the concepts. Just with different priorities.

 

[JowGaWolf]

It seems to me that men best avoid violence through projecting confidence and not challenging other men, Intentionally or unintentionally.

Projecting confidence never kept me from getting into a conflict. Neither has not challenging or unintentionally challenging another man.

My entire life has been this.
1. My confidence was either perceived as me being better than someone, when in reality I'm just happy to do my own thing.

2. If someone tries to get me to do something wrong and I refuse, then I have already created the challenge. If someone tries to get me to follow the crowd and I reject, then I have already challenged. If I share what I believe and what I know then I have already challenged someone who is trying to set authority. If you try to not challenge someone then you are bending to the will of others. At some point you will have to be true to yourself.

My biggest asset in my personal self-defense is that I don't react the way most people expect. This causes uncertainty and as a result people have uncertainty about their direct actions to harm me. While this has protected me from a lot of aggressive situations, it has made me the victim of a lot of "backstabbing." When people know they can't get you physically then they will try by other means.

My biggest strengths in life are these 2 things.
1. I'm comfortable with who I am as a person
2. I don't feel any need to fit in because of #1.

 

[Mallic]

Projecting confidence never kept me from getting into a conflict. Neither has not challenging or unintentionally challenging another man.

My entire life has been this.
1. My confidence was either perceived as me being better than someone, when in reality I'm just happy to do my own thing.

2. If someone tries to get me to do something wrong and I refuse, then I have already created the challenge. If someone tries to get me to follow the crowd and I reject, then I have already challenged. If I share what I believe and what I know then I have already challenged someone who is trying to set authority. If you try to not challenge someone then you are bending to the will of others. At some point you will have to be true to yourself.

My biggest asset in my personal self-defense is that I don't react the way most people expect. This causes uncertainty and as a result people have uncertainty about their direct actions to harm me. While this has protected me from a lot of aggressive situations, it has made me the victim of a lot of "backstabbing." When people know they can't get you physically then they will try by other means.

My biggest strengths in life are these 2 things.
1. I'm comfortable with who I am as a person
2. I don't feel any need to fit in because of #1.

Isn't that still better than being seen as weak?

 

[Buka]

Self Defense for Women

What do you think is the best form of martial arts for women? One that can help them with assaults?

www.martialtalk.com

A good thread with some actual women sharing their thoughts. Just before this one picks up steam, a good place to start.

That was a fun read, I had forgotten that thread. I miss all those people who aren’t here anymore. They were fun to read.

 

[hoshin1600]

TL;DR:Become a lesbian and just avoid men entirely.

In all seriousness why are you shaming someone for wanting a little bit of agency in such a situation?

You're basically telling them to to everything they can to avoid it because once they do get into it there's literally nothing they can do but accept their fate. Telling someone it's a waste of time to wanna fight back actually does more harm then good.

You may think thinking up stratagems is a waste of time but personally it's still better then embracing perpetual victimhood.

I'm not telling women anything. I'm talking to you and the other men contributers in this thread.
The first thing I said is that you have to define the threat. To be serious in this conversation we need to be very specific.
Case in point:

Telling someone it's a waste of time to wanna fight back actually does more harm then good.

And your basing this opinion on what exactly?
The problem is that you are imagining a scenario in your head that probably has a very low percentage of actually happening.
Here is a better scenario that is likely to happen: woman is married to a man that regularly beats her severely and uses forced sexual situations as punishment. They have 2 kids together. Your going to advise her to fight back? Oh really, how is that going to work out when she will need to face him at the kitchen table in the morning and the days after that? Her thoughts go to her kids, not the assault. This is where mens macho " ill fight the world and win" attitude does not serve women at all. Women have different priorities that us men usually don't understand or take into account.
Here is an uncomfortable truth. If we for the sake of argument account women as 50 % of the population, what percent of women actually go and take martial arts ? Answer is very few. Why? Because they do not want to. I think women fully understand the threats they face and have been surrounded by for their life time. And yet they CHOOSE not to make self defense a priority. Can you explain that?
Sometimes the answer is fighting back, but only sometimes. A very low proportion of sometimes.
The answer for women's self defense is mostly found in why they choose what they choose not in technique or style or where to carry a weapon.
In a quick Google search it says 79% of vegans are women. Women don't like to hurt things or kill things. Do you expect a women to hurt or kill a human if they won't hurt an animal?
Again the issue is priorities not techniques or how to apply violence.

 

[Mallic]

I'm not telling women anything. I'm talking to you and the other men contributers in this thread.
The first thing I said is that you have to define the threat. To be serious in this conversation we need to be very specific.
Case in point:

And your basing this opinion on what exactly?
The problem is that you are imagining a scenario in your head that probably has a very low percentage of actually happening.
Here is a better scenario that is likely to happen: woman is married to a man that regularly beats her severely and uses forced sexual situations as punishment. They have 2 kids together. Your going to advise her to fight back? Oh really, how is that going to work out when she will need to face him at the kitchen table in the morning and the days after that? Her thoughts go to her kids, not the assault. This is where mens macho " ill fight the world and win" attitude does not serve women at all. Women have different priorities that us men usually don't understand or take into account.
Here is an uncomfortable truth. If we for the sake of argument account women as 50 % of the population, what percent of women actually go and take martial arts ? Answer is very few. Why? Because they do not want to. I think women fully understand the threats they face and have been surrounded by for their life time. And yet they CHOOSE not to make self defense a priority. Can you explain that?
Sometimes the answer is fighting back, but only sometimes. A very low proportion of sometimes.
The answer for women's self defense is mostly found in why they choose what they choose not in technique or style or where to carry a weapon.
In a quick Google search it says 79% of vegans are women. Women don't like to hurt things or kill things. Do you expect a women to hurt or kill a human if they won't hurt an animal?
Again the issue is priorities not techniques or how to apply violence.

This is why i often ask women with the utmost sincerity, whether or not they want a man or a pet? Cause if what you're saying is true, wouldn't the simplest solution be to just avoid men entirely. Date women, get a dog and treat men as if they are the progenitors of original sin.

I don't like hurting things either, doesn't mean I won't if I have to, and yes, I know people who would sooner harm a human then an animal because they view the human as the bigger threat. There is a saying that really applies here "One who is incapable of violence is not good, they are harmless. Only one with the capacity for violence but chooses not to can truly be considered a good person"

All this said, I can say with confidence that women have nothing to fear from me, as I personally find a woman with such a mentality to be incredibly dull.

 

[hoshin1600]

This is why i often ask women with the utmost sincerity, whether or not they want a man or a pet? Cause if what you're saying is true, wouldn't the simplest solution be to just avoid men entirely. Date women, get a dog and treat men as if they are the progenitors of original sin.

I don't like hurting things either, doesn't mean I won't if I have to, and yes, I know people who would sooner harm a human then an animal because they view the human as the bigger threat. There is a saying that really applies here "One who is incapable of violence is not good, they are harmless. Only one with the capacity for violence but chooses not to can truly be considered a good person"

All this said, I can say with confidence that women have nothing to fear from me, as I personally find a woman with such a mentality to be incredibly dull.

Just to be clear I'm not really arguing with you specifically. I'm building a case here and I'm going somewhere with this. I can teach this in a class in about an hour but it's more difficult in bits and pieces in a thread post.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Isn't that still better than being seen as weak?

There are different types off weaknesses. Which one are you referring to?

 

[Mallic]

There are different types off weaknesses. Which one are you referring to?

I'm talking easy to manipulate and essentially a big *** pushover (There was another P word I was thinking of that rhymes with lucy, but i imagine you guys want to keep it PG in here) you don't care about being a people pleaser, you're true to what you want and what you believe in, and whether you know it or not, that strong will makes people less likely to just run up on you. And I like that.
Despite you saying otherwise, i get the feeling you're someone who isn't afraid to beat someone's *** if they had to.
See it's less being able to and more the willingness to do so. Not having a macho "Me against the world mentality" but knowing what needs to be done.

 

[hoshin1600]

Real life conversation I had:
she told me she had been molested by her father as a teen. She allowed it to happen because she felt she was protecting her younger sister.
Case in point different priorities.

Every police officer will tell you one of their worst nightmares is being called to a domestic dispute. Happens all the time that both man and woman turn on the officer trying to protect the woman.

In Gavin Debecker's book he told the story of a woman carrying groceries to the door of her housing complex man meets her at the door walking In. Offers to help her carry the bags. At first declines but gives in. He carries her bags to her door and into the apartment. He then tells her he is going to rape and kill her. She does escape. My point is priorities and choices.
If we are to take women's self defense seriously we need to do more than give lip service to "awareness". I hear the RBSD guys do this all the time without talking about how or any specifics. That's about as useful as telling a tree to grow.
The grocery woman made choices all along the time line in the situation. As self defenders we need to change choices and this is accomplished by helping redirect priorities.
A better choice for grocery woman would have been to adamantly decline the help.
no thank you I'm all set,
..oh come on it looks heavy, let me help. Here let me take these fior you.
no really I got it. I'm sure your just trying to help and I really appreciate your kind offer but ...(change of tone) honestly your making me uncomfortable right now and would like to be left alone , I'm sorry.

most women would not do that for several reasons but one reason is they dont want to seem rude but another reason women give in is out of fear that their behavior would trigger violence.
But what is overlooked in my opinion is that it will only trigger a violent response in someone who has bad intent to begin with. A normal man would be taken aback and apologize for making her uncomfortable and leave.
So now we are stuck with the direct escalation of violence. But she did it on her terms at her choice. Basically she called him out on his intentions and forced him to withdraw or show his hand. I truly belive that calling him out and forcing him to make an assault on the door step is 100 times better than in her apartment. Forcing peoples hand at the time of your own choosing even if it does result in violence is the best possible out come that was going to happen that day.

 

[Mallic]

Real life conversation I had:
she told me she had been molested by her father as a teen. She allowed it to happen because she felt she was protecting her younger sister.
Case in point different priorities.

Every police officer will tell you one of their worst nightmares is being called to a domestic dispute. Happens all the time that both man and woman turn on the officer trying to protect the woman.

In Gavin Debecker's book he told the story of a woman carrying groceries to the door of her housing complex man meets her at the door walking In. Offers to help her carry the bags. At first declines but gives in. He carries her bags to her door and into the apartment. He then tells her he is going to rape and kill her. She does escape. My point is priorities and choices.
If we are to take women's self defense seriously we need to do more than give lip service to "awareness". I hear the RBSD guys do this all the time without talking about how or any specifics. That's about as useful as telling a tree to grow.
The grocery woman made choices all along the time line in the situation. As self defenders we need to change choices and this is accomplished by helping redirect priorities.
A better choice for grocery woman would have been to adamantly decline the help.
no thank you I'm all set,
..oh come on it looks heavy, let me help. Here let me take these fior you.
no really I got it. I'm sure your just trying to help and I really appreciate your kind offer but ...(change of tone) honestly your making me uncomfortable right now and would like to be left alone , I'm sorry.

most women would not do that for several reasons but one reason is they dont want to seem rude but another reason women give in is out of fear that their behavior would trigger violence.
But what is overlooked in my opinion is that it will only trigger a violent response in someone who has bad intent to begin with. A normal man would be taken aback and apologize for making her uncomfortable and leave.
So now we are stuck with the direct escalation of violence. But she did it on her terms at her choice. Basically she called him out on his intentions and forced him to withdraw or show his hand. I truly belive that calling him out and forcing him to make an assault on the door step is 100 times better than in her apartment. Forcing peoples hand at the time of your own choosing even if it does result in violence is the best possible out come that was going to happen that day.

And that exact scenario is why a lot of men are asking "What's the point in even trying?" Some want to help some want to just be genuinely good people, yet because of situations like this our intentions are met with hostility and distrust.

I want to encourage women to be more self reliant because I hate thar my being a man means I'm automatically considered a threat for something I might do, which just results in me looking at a woman who's actually having a problem and making the conscious decision to just pretend I don't see anything "I don't know her, not my problem"

 

[Badhabits]

And that exact scenario is why a lot of men are asking "What's the point in even trying?" Some want to help some want to just be genuinely good people, yet because of situations like this our intentions are met with hostility and distrust.

I want to encourage women to be more self reliant because I hate thar my being a man means I'm automatically considered a threat for something I might do, which just results in me looking at a woman who's actually having a problem and making the conscious decision to just pretend I don't see anything "I don't know her, not my problem"

It's probably been this way for all human history. Personally I'm glad us men are bigger, stronger and faster. That's all we got. If we weren't we'd all be out of jobs and sent to live on reservations. The women wouldn't need us around anymore. We might get taken out to babysit the kids but other than that we'd be screwed

 

[isshinryuronin]

Sometimes I wonder why I choose to wade into the cesspool of these type conversations

This thread quickly devolved into a sociological discussion. I read the OP as pertaining to self-defense, not the causes of violence, women's issues, situational awareness, conflict avoidance, etc. These are worthwhile topics but have nothing to do with self-defense - the actual employment of technique against imminent physical attack. In other words, martial arts.

I think a discussion on how a man's and woman's employment of such technique will/should differ against a male attacker will be more objective, pull us out of the "cesspool" and touch upon some important aspects of personal combat. Otherwise, I must join JowGaWolf's sentiments.

I had my fill. Have fun

 

[Mallic]

It's probably been this way for all human history. Personally I'm glad us men are bigger, stronger and faster. That's all we got. If we weren't we'd all be out of jobs and sent to live on reservations. The women wouldn't need us around anymore. We might get taken out to babysit the kids but other than that we'd be screwed

I'm not. Personally, I think being a woman can be very...convenient. I'd gladly give up my physical strength if it meant i wasn't looked at as little better then a wild animal.

This thread quickly devolved into a sociological discussion. I read the OP as pertaining to self-defense, not the causes of violence, women's issues, situational awareness, conflict avoidance, etc. These are worthwhile topics but have nothing to do with self-defense - the actual employment of technique against imminent physical attack. In other words, martial arts.

I think a discussion on how a man's and woman's employment of such technique will/should differ against a male attacker will be more objective, pull us out of the "cesspool" and touch upon some important aspects of personal combat. Otherwise, I must join JowGaWolf's sentiments.

We tried but then someone just swooped in and said trying to do so is a waste of time as a woman can't do anything against a male attacker anyway.

 

[GreenieMeanie]

Projecting confidence never kept me from getting into a conflict. Neither has not challenging or unintentionally challenging another man.

My entire life has been this.
1. My confidence was either perceived as me being better than someone, when in reality I'm just happy to do my own thing.

2. If someone tries to get me to do something wrong and I refuse, then I have already created the challenge. If someone tries to get me to follow the crowd and I reject, then I have already challenged. If I share what I believe and what I know then I have already challenged someone who is trying to set authority. If you try to not challenge someone then you are bending to the will of others. At some point you will have to be true to yourself.

My biggest asset in my personal self-defense is that I don't react the way most people expect. This causes uncertainty and as a result people have uncertainty about their direct actions to harm me. While this has protected me from a lot of aggressive situations, it has made me the victim of a lot of "backstabbing." When people know they can't get you physically then they will try by other means.

My biggest strengths in life are these 2 things.
1. I'm comfortable with who I am as a person
2. I don't feel any need to fit in because of #1.

Projecting confidence, as in people don’t target you as an easy mark.

Most violence between men occurs from either other men feeling challenged, or men looking to create pretext for a challenge. It can’t always be avoided, but if you know what to look for, strategies of mitigation can be developed.

 

[GreenieMeanie]

@Mallic @Badhabits The only people adding practical information to this thread right now are @isshinryuronin and @hoshin1600.

We do not care about sociology. If the comment does not cover who women face threats from, how they avoid those threats and physical confrontation, what tools they use to end physical confrontation, and what training should be like to reflect this paradigm—then it does not belong in this thread.

 

[Mallic]

@Mallic @Badhabits The only people adding practical information to this thread right now are @isshinryuronin and @hoshin1600.

We do not care about sociology. If the comment does not cover who women face threats from, how they avoid those threats and physical confrontation, what tools they use to end physical confrontation, and what training should be like to reflect this paradigm—then it does not belong in this thread.

I was only half joking when I said become a lesbian. When interacting with men as a woman there will always be risks but if the only thing you care about is how to avoid said threats then the easiest answer is to do everything in your power to avoid any interaction with men and assume every man wants to hurt you

As for tools? Guns. Guns, a guarddog and the willingness to kill if they do much as look at you the wrong way. As a woman you're more likely to be forgiven if you just tell them you were scared for your safety.

 

[Badhabits]

My apologies, was just playing to the every thread needs a joke sentiment.