Women in Wing Chun

[Si-Je]

My (only) female student had a theory once. She said it related to savage times when humans were more like animals
Guys would fight over the women and the women wouldn't fight at all. Women were attracted to the scars and fighting prowess

I was hoping that we had evolved since then, but I still see it in clubs!! (Guys fighting over girls)

Well honey, I'm a a Celt. And way back in the day (3,000 years or so) women in Gaul fought with the men often in straight out battle. Many warriors trained under a female before reaching a certian level. Women were more equal in this aspect, although it isn't the caveman era. People have always managed to find plenty to fight about, and I'm sure prehistoric women fought often.

The club mentality is another social, and cultural issue altogether. And I've been seeing that girls and women are fighting more often in schools and such. Just look on youtube, comegetyousome.com and click on fights. You'll see some ugly stuff. They had a big scandal recently about some teeage cheerleader gals in Florida that video taped like 3 or 4 of them beating up another girl. like 3 to one. They posted it on the web to embarrass the girl more. So, they're now going to jail for assault.
Point being, they've found more videos like this online recently.
Women are fighting eachother well enough.
Since their feeling so froggy, I'd like to have them jump to the idea of an art that focuses on serious street self defense as it's everyday curriculum.
Say, especially the girls that are losing these fights of 2 or more against one.
But, they like MMA and such better because they feel strong when doing it. I guess inner peace doesn't sell. lol!

So, truely I'm giving up on this whole train of thought. I'm probably gonna skip the women's self defense class altogether, and just focus on teaching my own daughter. All these folks can continue to learn other arts, that really suits my origional purpose for taking MA in the first place. To be able to defend myself against those that want to attack, however they wish to do it and with whatever style.

If women just don't get into Wing Chun, that's not my problem. This whole experience has just bummed me out, and made me realize that it doesn't matter if people see WC fighting successfully against other arts, people will just see what they want to see, make excuses for why WC worked, even when given "proof" that the technique works.
Our students have always done well in tournaments and come back with metals. But, who cares? It's not changing anyone's mind.

Peace out,
Si-Je Nevermore.

P.S. thanks Mook Jong Man for some really good ideas and support. Hubbie's combined Fung and Emin in a pretty neat style of WC/WT and I'm really happy about it. Sorry to hear about Sifu Fung, I always wanted to get out there and train with him.

 

[Empty Hands]

...because it is not natural or normal for a person to see a battered looking woman.

Why should we or any female fighter care about what a bunch of people in a mall think? For that matter, it isn't normal anymore for a person to see a battered looking man. The sooner women aren't viewed as "natural" walking victims the better. As for any hypothetical bad **** going down in a mall because of a woman with a black eye, she could no doubt easily defuse the situation by explaining where it came from. Problem solved! If they didn't believe her, she could always offer to demonstrate her skills...

 

[Empty Hands]

...it just does not interest me in any way shape or form, so I don't watch it.

Is that insulting?

No, the insulting part was where you claimed all female fighters were "amateurish." Also, where you equated a female athlete competing in a ring with an abused women being hit by a boyfriend. That demonstrates quite well how you see all women fighters, and yes it is insulting.

 

[Kacey]

Here's the video I put on the women's board to see what women though of it.

I thought it was totally awesome! Others did not agree with me.

It's not that people disagreed with you - the comments about the demonstrator were quite positive. The problem was that it's not what many of us would teach when teaching basic self-defense to people who come in looking for something quick and simple and never intend to come back to the class again. The two are separate issues.

 

[dungeonworks]

No, the insulting part was where you claimed all female fighters were "amateurish." Also, where you equated a female athlete competing in a ring with an abused women being hit by a boyfriend. That demonstrates quite well how you see all women fighters, and yes it is insulting.

Yes, from the pro female fighters I have seen, yes, they do look amateurish compared to the pro men figthers. Don't blame me because it isn't appealing to me...there's lots of sports I don't like.

To me, a battered woman is disturbing to me as well....be it from a sport fight or domestic abuse, a black eye, bump, cut, bruise, and fat lip from either looks the same. Forgive my human side, but it doesn't look right to me and it is disturbing to see, hence my lack of interest in female combat sports and why I don't actively watch them.

 

[dungeonworks]

Why should we or any female fighter care about what a bunch of people in a mall think? For that matter, it isn't normal anymore for a person to see a battered looking man. The sooner women aren't viewed as "natural" walking victims the better. As for any hypothetical bad **** going down in a mall because of a woman with a black eye, she could no doubt easily defuse the situation by explaining where it came from. Problem solved! If they didn't believe her, she could always offer to demonstrate her skills...

Maybe since I am male, I was speaking from the male perspective??? I have been with a woman that had a facial injury from a car wreck, and believe me, I got looks and even some muttered insults.

As for why one should care what "a bunch of people in a mall think?", maybe it is the same as the answer to why one should care what anyone (including me) thinks....

 

[Kacey]

Maybe since I am male, I was speaking from the male perspective??? I have been with a woman that had a facial injury from a car wreck, and believe me, I got looks and even some muttered insults.

As for why one should care what "a bunch of people in a mall think?", maybe it is the same as the answer to why one should care what anyone (including me) thinks....

Well... the other side, of course, is the people who care enough to try help. There used to be a young woman in the same class I train in - she was very, blond, very fair skin, and bruised very easily. One day after a sparring class she was in the grocery store, and another woman saw the bruises on her arms and legs, came up to her, touched her very gently, and said something like "there is help available" - it's funny now, but the woman sincerely thought that the lady I trained with was being abused, and wanted to help her find her way out of the abusive situation.

If you train hard, earn battle scars, and are proud enough of them to want to show them off - more power to you! But don't be surprised when people assume you got them another way.

 

[dungeonworks]

Here's the video I put on the women's board to see what women though of it.

I thought it was totally awesome! Others did not agree with me.

I thought it was a great demo. The only thing with it is that it would take quite a bit of time in Wing Chun to reach that level of proficiency in technique let alone sensitivity. I believe the mindset of the "Womens Self Defense" crowd is to learn relatively quickly and somewhat easily/efficiently....ala Krav Maga. In the 5 months I been in Wing Chun, I have yet to see anything that is learned quickly. WC/WT is too intricate IMVHO to be minimized or "Fun Sized" if you will.

You mentioned teaching your daughter. Why not have her invite some of her friends, then their mothers. Perhaps that is a way at them? If they see their kids liking and growing with it, then maybe they will feel a need to try it out? Not only that, but teaching kids, you have a clean slate to train.

Just a thought.

 

[mook jong man]

Si -Je have you ever thought of migrating to Germany apparently Wing Chun is huge over there, heaps of people do it.
Just on a side note if you do manage to get some ladies in , make them practice the low heel kick directed at the knee or the shin relentlessly.
Get them to train for power on the pads and also for reflex by having the partner step in, also get them do do it from the ground.
My wife who has hardly any wing chun training at all ( just couldn't seem to get her interested ) anyway i made sure she learned low heel kick and palm striking.
She was walking down our street to the bus stop to go to work about 6 am in the morning and some scumbag jumped out and threatened her with a knife and demanded her hand bag.
She wouldn't give him the hand bag so he pushed her to the ground and god knows how she remembered it but she cracked him in the shins about 3 times with low heel kicks and he hobbled off to his car and got away, she got a superficial cut on her arm but could have been a lot worse. The bloke was about 6 foot and solid build, my wife is 5 foot 3 same size as me, some people would say she should have given him the bag, but whats to say you give him the bag and he stabs you anyway.
Just make sure you teach em that kick because it is a live saver and remember it doesn't matter how big and powerful some one looks they still have the same amount of skin covering their shins as what you and i have.
Imagine getting a low heel kick from some one wearing stilletto high heels it makes my eyes water just thinking about it.

 

[Si-Je]

We're building our kids class already. When school starts it should pick up more. I love teaching the kiddos. But, my daughter is only 19 months old.
I'm itching for her to get old enough to play with! But, then I get more time in WC before I start training her.
We'll probably just go to local churches and teach Women's SD for free, if at all. I've tried to get a SD class going so many times, and it's just too much frustration and dissapointment.

 

[Yoshiyahu]

The Problem is women May see the benefits of fighting. But to them training in fighting is boring. I have found there are more Asian women who train that Normal American women. I went to a Wing Chun class in another city. There were about 15 men in their mid 20's-30's and one woman in her 20's along with one preteen male. When I was a child I wanted to learn Kung Fu but my uncle had me do akido. I really hated it because there was absolutly no real fighting involved. An In a fight I would have utlized boxing because the Akido didn't work with kids at my school. Everyone there did boxing and wrestling. It wasn't until my cousin took me a side an started training me in Wing Chun that actually had a chance to really learn how to fight properly. But in either case I always had desire for fighting in Gung Fu. Most women do not have a desire to fight. Therefore learning to fight is of no use to them. Some women who do have that desire to learn how to fight have been abused,molested,rape or they are currently living in fear. So they feel their only option is to learn self defense. But the problem is Many people don't know what Wing Chun is. I mean When my cousin was teaching me I wanted to learn the five animals. But He was like Wing Chun would go well with your structure.

My Si Hing has a Wing Chun class offered to the public for free. There is only one female in that class. I took my wife to class once because she talking about learning self defense but after she got there and did the punching drills standing in Yee Gee Kim Yueng Ma she quickly went an sat down. My lineage also utilizes what we call the Wing Chun Down Punch. This can be very hard on your legs especially holding it for along time. You have practice it regularly before your body can adjust. But when you first do it man you feel it. I think this took to Word Desire for Self Defense out of my wifes Mouth. lol...The Way I learn Wing Chun we stress heavy basics which is hard for your first time.

 

[Si-Je]

I wanted (and still want to) have a women's wing chun class just for the ladies. I probably won't even "call" it wing chun.
Problem I've seen is that most women don't learn the same way as the traditional "chinese" way of teaching. They don't want to stand there and do drill after drill after drill (neither do I! lol! I tolerate it to get to the good stuff). So...

I'd teach the class completely different. Keep the gal's moving, almost like a cardio class. Say, for the beginning of class start out stepping in basic doing heel kick with dai sau (or tan sau) and chain punching up and down the floor.

That way their "drilling" their chain punching but also working on stance, stepping, kicking, deflection, and structure at the same time. So you can nit pick on their technique while keeping them moving. This would show women the "complete" wing chun in action right away, so they'd know where these "drills" were taking them too.

Men seem to handle the "militant" atmosphere of drilling techniques and practicing fixed positions for a long time much better. We chicks like to keep it moving. That way they could work up a sweat, and you could plug the cardio and calestinic benefits of WC.

Honestly, I'd probably play some music in the background to keep it
upbeat too, much like a cardio class. Like some good techno or dance music to make it fun.
And of course, boys aren't allowed! lol!

That way the ladies can train without whatever hangups they may have with men, and feel more comfortable when they make mistakes, or feel unsure with new technique. Which, WC is very awkward at first, and at times very, very frustrating! This way they could be supportive of eachother without feeling intimidated, inferior, or "judged" by their male counterparts. And when they get more comfortable with the style of Wing Chun, then of course, invite them to the co-ed class.

Plus, I've definately noticed that my attitude and demeanor is totally different than my male fellow students. I have fun with MA and laugh when I make a mistake (this keeps me from getting frustrated when I do something wrong), I am more casual with drilling, and like to talk too.

(Although I am just as SERIOUS about my training as men are with theirs, I just find it easier to relax while doing the techniques when I AM relaxed.) I think women would have more fun in this type of environment, and wouldn't mind the stiffness and sorness of drilling if they had a good time doing it.

 

[Gingerfox]

I am female and have been doing WC for only a short while. I am the only female in an all male class. At first I found it incredibly uncomfortable because I had the wrong attitude i.e. 'I cannot possibly do that' etc and to be fair, because I was female was expecting some kind of dispensation. My teacher rightly treated me exactly the same as all the ohter guys - and from that I totally changed my attitude. I love WC and I couldnt give a hoot if I am the only female. As for females not being as good as men - get real - women fight all the time but in different ways - and when they do have to use physical violence they are vicious. Just look at the examples you have in nature - its always the female that is more lethal. I think woman just get their natural fighting spirit conditioned out of them by society. Even in the MA world we are sold pink fighting gloves!! This is actually my first post - so hello everyone!

 

[naneek]

there are 9 females in the class i attend 4 of them are teenaged girls and aside from three who are recent members and therefore just beginning the others are very skilled and fast with their hands, i feel that perhaps women dont have the hang up that some men do on trying to put too much power into a techniqe before they get it right which i feel can impede learning - just my thoughts

 

[naneek]

by the way welcome gingerfox enjoy the forum!!

 

[Si-Je]

I agree that women seem to pick WC up faster at times because we don't have the strength to depend on, that's why I wonder why there aren't more women in WC/WT, especially in the higher ranks? Especially in America. Europe and Austraila seem to have that covered.

Maybe because schools generally only teach from 6-9 p.m. and many women are busy with the family thing at that time, or we need daycare for the mom's, or teach all day all night at a committed academy like Sifu Fung, I don't know. Maybe a combination of time issues, child care, and (especially these days) money issues. (most kung fu schools in DFW area charge 100-150 a month per person for class!

It seems to me that women are more interested in MMA, BJJ, karate, TKD here in the states. Maybe because their more popular and they feel more secure in learning a familiar art. I'm not sure.

Me, I wanted to learn the wierd art no one ever heard of. That way they'd be really surprised when I used technique, lol! I didn't want to learn what everyone else was into. I wanted to learn something that most people couldn't counter. But, I'm pretty perverse.

 

[Kacey]

Me, I wanted to learn the wierd art no one ever heard of.

I suspect this is the problem right here - not the weird part, but the "no one ever heard of" part. Very few women, relatively speaking, are involved in any MA in the US; even fewer, therefore, would be involved in an art that is less common, because they wouldn't know to look for it, or know what it was if they found it.

 

[Si-Je]

I know. Sigh.. It's just very frustrating. How do you educate an area about WC? We've done demo's, competitions, each gaining us students and such, but to reach the mass of the people?!!
We'd have to do something drastic, I fear.
Or, just wait the 30 years it'll take to "hip" everyone on to what WC is in the metroplex.

 

[theletch1]

The metroplex, sadly, is probably what it's going to take. Aikido enjoyed a huge take off after Seagal hit the scene. Karate took off after Norris hit the scene. Kung fu took off after Carradine hit the scene with the tv series. Sad but true. It's just nearly impossible to get the attention of the american population with out sticking commercials in the middle of it. There's an idea... you could stop your demos for 30 seconds and have someone try to sell something.

 

[naneek]

is wing chun really so unknown in the states! it is fairly popular here in Nz though not as prolific as the various styles of karate my suburb has at least three kwoons from seperate lineages that i know of!