Wing Chun vs MMA

[Spinoza]

I was going to mention that. You ever fought an IDF guy? I haven't so where was it decided IDF guys are world class fighters?

Who said anything about "world class fighters"?

And that is before we even address whether or not you are being trained by the guy who trains the IDF. Which of course you are not.

As mentioned earlier, the effectiveness of styles of training and the effectiveness of styles of MA are two different questions. The questions was whether KM was effective in self defense, not whether my KM training is effective for self defense (which it can't be, because I don't train in KM).

So ignoring then mma as a testing ground why is krav effective?

Because it has been and is used in self defense situations. I'm assuming that the IDF has actually used some of their training in real life. If they have not used their training, and they just continue to train in Krav Maga for the sake of training in Krav Maga, then I'd have to reassess my assumptions.

 

[Spinoza]

Where can we watch a televised Lei Tai match?

I can find some links for you if you'd like. It is, of course, more commonly televised in China than the US.

Where are all the Lei Tai fighters entering the global MMA competition circuit?

Where are the MMA fighters entering the lei tai circuit? Not that it matters, but Cung Le is a lei tai fighter who has done pretty good in MMA.

See above.

You said that kung fu fighters never competed this way in the past. Lei tai proves that his claim is incorrect. In fact, in the past, some lei tai matches were fought to the death, historically they were fought bare knuckle and weapons were even sometimes allowed.

I'm simply saying, you're going to need something to that effect to dislodge the MMA trend; Something that breaks the current rules on what is effective, just like the Gracies did in the UFC that started the MMA trend in the first place.

And I'm simply saying that MMA has its own cultural trends and influence, rather than being a purely "scientific" comparison of styles.

As long as Lei Tai is under the surface and not seen by anyone but a select group of people that isn't going to amount to much.

Lei tai has a much longer history than MMA. The fact that it is not as popular in the West is part of the point -- when it comes to style popularity, there are a lot of considerations beyond the idea that MMA somehow scientifically gravitates towards the objectively best.

It's like the story of the old master in the mountain who can defeat all comers, yet no one knows exactly where he is, and he will never come down from the mountain.

You can read up on lei tai without visiting a mountain. It isn't hiding, it just isn't as popular here. Again, that's part of the point.

EDIT:

Ah, I've found some "Lei Tai". It's called Kuoshu these days;

Yeah............

So that's full contact Kung Fu? Interesting.

The sarcasm and cherry-picking of Youtube videos isn't conducive to a respectful and mutually beneficial conversation. I think we are done here. If you would like to know more about lei tai, the Wikipedia article is actually really well done. "Kuoshu" literally just means kung fu, and kuoshu competitions can include full contact lei tai matches, but are also full of wushu demonstrations and friendlier matches. You can look up some Sanshou lei tai videos for some less friendly fights.

 

[Spinoza]

Spinoza, I'll just throw out that there are superior styles of training. Not techniques or martial arts styles,. Rather, the way in which you teach someone a skill and them test their proficiency in that skill. How you train matters. How you test for proficiency matters.

If you think I am an MMA over wing chun guy, I have failed to be clear. I'm a good training over bad training guy. A lot of people here teach or train well. Some don't. And some of those who don't, think they do. if you get my drift.

No worries; actually your post was what got me thinking about clarifying on that distinction, because I thought you had more clearly made that distinction than I had.

 

[Paul_D]

Have some chick beat Holly Holms or Ronda Rousey using White Crane Style.

"some chick"

Such immense respect you have for women in general and female MMA fighters in particular.

 

[Steve]

I can see the difference I didn't say they were the same. I said it's closer to reality then the ring. And since I've trained in an MMA gym with people training for the ring and am a Cop I've experienced both.

I'll have to dust off all of your posts about how the ring isn't self defense, but change it from cage to cop. The distinctions are the same.

The only difference is that you play for the cop team and others play for the octagon team.

 

[drop bear]

No worries; actually your post was what got me thinking about clarifying on that distinction, because I thought you had more clearly made that distinction than I had.

The thing with martial arts in general is the systems have all been made up at some point. Some people are going to do a better job of that than others.

 

[Hanzou]

I can find some links for you if you'd like. It is, of course, more commonly televised in China than the US.

Please do.

Where are the MMA fighters entering the lei tai circuit? Not that it matters, but Cung Le is a lei tai fighter who has done pretty good in MMA.

Why would they when MMA promotions make them more money? Professional Sanda/Sanshou fighters are trying to break into MMA, not the other way around. Cung Le is an example of what I'm talking about.

You said that kung fu fighters never competed this way in the past. Lei tai proves that his claim is incorrect. In fact, in the past, some lei tai matches were fought to the death, historically they were fought bare knuckle and weapons were even sometimes allowed.

Based on what I'm seeing out of those Lei Tai competitions, I would say that no, they're not competing the way MMA did.

And I'm simply saying that MMA has its own cultural trends and influence, rather than being a purely "scientific" comparison of styles.

Elaborate.

Lei tai has a much longer history than MMA. The fact that it is not as popular in the West is part of the point -- when it comes to style popularity, there are a lot of considerations beyond the idea that MMA somehow scientifically gravitates towards the objectively best.

Yes, people tend to prefer seeing technique being exchanged, not two people swinging wildly as if they've had no training whatsoever.

The sarcasm and cherry-picking of Youtube videos isn't conducive to a respectful and mutually beneficial conversation. I think we are done here. If you would like to know more about lei tai, the Wikipedia article is actually really well done. "Kuoshu" literally just means kung fu, and kuoshu competitions can include full contact lei tai matches, but are also full of wushu demonstrations and friendlier matches. You can look up some Sanshou lei tai videos for some less friendly fights.

Where's the cherry picking? I typed in "Lei Tai fights" and those were the first vids that popped up. There's literally hundreds of vids like that on the web.

Yeah I was being sarcastic because the fighting looked pretty bad considering that we're supposed to be looking at two Martial Artists engaging in a full contact fight. No offense, but I've seen street fights on World Star with better technique.

You don't think it's interesting that all of those forms and techniques go out the window when the fists start flying? I do.

 

[ballen0351]

I'll have to dust off all of your posts about how the ring isn't self defense, but change it from cage to cop. The distinctions are the same.

The only difference is that you play for the cop team and others play for the octagon team.

Not even close they are far different. Again it's not the physical skills that im talking about with regards to self defense. Its the mental and emotional side. The fear can't be replicated . For example 3 nights ago I get dispatched to a suicidal/homicidal man with a rifle in his home. He sent a text,to his wife he was going to kill himself and if the police or paramedics show up before he does it he will kill them first. Now in the end im standing in his living room trying to talk him into putting the gun down and coming with me to the hospital. Is that exact scene something a private citizen would encounter...of course not, proper self defense would have been drive across town and eat a cheese burger. However the fear and mental challenges of getting past the fear of being killed would be very similar to a scenario where your in your office and a terminated employee walks in with a gun wanting to kill the boss and you guys find yourself face to face in the office. Or really any scenario where your face to face with an armed subject that's mentally unstable. The fear of death is something the cage can never replicate. Its also the hardest part of self defense to deal with. Now you can dismiss the mental aspects of self defense if you wish but in my opinion that is far harder to deal with and overcome then a physical technique that you will learn and practice in a class or gym

 

[Phobius]

Where's the cherry picking? I typed in "Lei Tai fights" and those were the first vids that popped up. There's literally hundreds of vids like that on the web.

Think I might be out on a limb here but if you search for "Lei Tai fights" you get some american wannabe or european friendly version. For most asian fights you either have to search specifically or even better go to a chinese only website (forgot the name of their YouTube counterpart) to search for clips.

I am not saying this as someone who knows but rather using logical sense. Chinese people do not have access to YouTube, so finding information there is usually not gonna give any good results.

 

[drop bear]

Not even close they are far different. Again it's not the physical skills that im talking about with regards to self defense. Its the mental and emotional side. The fear can't be replicated . For example 3 nights ago I get dispatched to a suicidal/homicidal man with a rifle in his home. He sent a text,to his wife he was going to kill himself and if the police or paramedics show up before he does it he will kill them first. Now in the end im standing in his living room trying to talk him into putting the gun down and coming with me to the hospital. Is that exact scene something a private citizen would encounter...of course not, proper self defense would have been drive across town and eat a cheese burger. However the fear and mental challenges of getting past the fear of being killed would be very similar to a scenario where your in your office and a terminated employee walks in with a gun wanting to kill the boss and you guys find yourself face to face in the office. Or really any scenario where your face to face with an armed subject that's mentally unstable. The fear of death is something the cage can never replicate. Its also the hardest part of self defense to deal with. Now you can dismiss the mental aspects of self defense if you wish but in my opinion that is far harder to deal with and overcome then a physical technique that you will learn and practice in a class or gym

You don't think there is an emotional element to training or competition?

You don't think mental toughness is a determining factor in both environments?

The thing is you are taking your individual issues and assuming they are even across the board. And again you assume you have a monopoly of fear or real situations.

We have no idea if you would break mentally in a cage under pressure. I have seen guys who have faced life or death do just that. Then they take the mental toughness they learned in the cage and use that to increase their ability to handle a life or death situation.

And regardless of that. You do not have a better method for equipping people with mental toughness or the ability to handle a self defence situation. You don't have any method for this.

And that is where it all breaks down for you. Just because you don't have a method to deal with this. You think there is no method to deal with these issues. But you haven't really looked.

But the truth is your situation is not special. Plenty of people handle life or death situations. And some of those people do look for outside methods to increase mental toughness and handle fear. So we can develop strategies outside of confronting crazy people with guns.

 

[drop bear]

Think I might be out on a limb here but if you search for "Lei Tai fights" you get some american wannabe or european friendly version. For most asian fights you either have to search specifically or even better go to a chinese only website (forgot the name of their YouTube counterpart) to search for clips.

I am not saying this as someone who knows but rather using logical sense. Chinese people do not have access to YouTube, so finding information there is usually not gonna give any good results.

So logically there will only be bad fights on YouTube?

You don't think that is a stretch?

Anyway one fc is Asia's answer to the ufc. You might want to look there.

 

[ballen0351]

You don't think there is an emotional element to training or competition?

You don't think mental toughness is a determining factor in both environments?

Of course there is but its not the same. There is no fear of death in a ring only losing

The thing is you are taking your individual issues and assuming they are even across the board. And again you assume you have a monopoly of fear or real situations.

I don't assume anything Ive said several times Military, Police, even used the example of a kid growing up in a gang infested neighborhood who lost several family members to gang violence all have experience in this type of mental conditioning. Id add Docs and Nurses working in ER's, Correction Guards, even criminals themselves.

We have no idea if you would break mentally in a cage under pressure. I have seen guys who have faced life or death do just that. Then they take the mental toughness they learned in the cage and use that to increase their ability to handle a life or death situation.

Sure we dont know how Id do in a ring however since I have no fear of dying in a ring and dont care about winning pretty trophies Im sure ill be fine. What I know for a fact is the ring will never equal the fear and mental strain of a real life violent encounter

And regardless of that. You do not have a better method for equipping people with mental toughness or the ability to handle a self defense situation. You don't have any method for this.

Never claimed too. I simply saying your argument of well I do it in the ring so I can do it in real life is flawed because they are too different. It is as realistic as me saying "well Ive survived the streets for 15years as a Cop so I could win the next UFC fight" They are far to different to be comparable.

And that is where it all breaks down for you. Just because you don't have a method to deal with this. You think there is no method to deal with these issues. But you haven't really looked.

Except I have I trained in MMA gyms, I train with MMA fighters, I have cop friends that coach MMA at gyms who agree with me MMA in the ring isnt real and doesn't compare. I currently train at an MMA gym. So Yeah Ive really looked

But the truth is your situation is not special. Plenty of people handle life or death situations. And some of those people do look for outside methods to increase mental toughness and handle fear. So we can develop strategies outside of confronting crazy people with guns.

Sure and Ive mentioned them your were too busy worrying about elephants

 

[drop bear]

Sure we dont know how Id do in a ring however since I have no fear of dying in a ring and dont care about winning pretty trophies Im sure ill be fine. What I know for a fact is the ring will never equal the fear and mental strain of a real life violent encounter

It's a fact now is it?
Do you have a source?

 

[drop bear]

Sure and Ive mentioned them your were too busy worrying about elephants

No you haven't other than fight guys on PCP. It would be easy to either cut and paste where you offered a solution or re right it. But you won't. You will deflect instead. And I wonder why?

 

[ballen0351]

It's a fact now is it?
Do you have a source?

You fear for your life in the ring? Alot of people being murdered or killed daily in the ring? NO So the fear isnt the same never will be

 

[drop bear]

Except I have I trained in MMA gyms, I train with MMA fighters, I have cop friends that coach MMA at gyms who agree with me MMA in the ring isnt real and doesn't compare. I currently train at an MMA gym. So Yeah Iv

Lol. I have cop friends that agree with me. And cop friends who couldn't self defence their way out of a paper bag. So as I said neither of us are special.

I am not relying on that as my one big argument though.

 

[ballen0351]

No you haven't other than fight guys on PCP. It would be easy to either cut and paste where you offered a solution or re right it. But you won't. You will deflect instead. And I wonder why?

Go read it Im not cutting and pasting things Ive already typed. But now we are bleeding one topic into multiple threads and this has nothing to do with Wing Chun so perhaps you can settle on one thread instead of bouncing around to different threads with the same argument

 

[ballen0351]

Lol. I have cop friends that agree with me. And cop friends who couldn't self defence their way out of a paper bag. So as I said neither of us are special.

I am not relying on that as my one big argument though.

Nor am I

 

[drop bear]

You fear for your life in the ring? Alot of people being murdered or killed daily in the ring? NO So the fear isnt the same never will be

Driving is about the most dangerous thing you can do. So therefore the fear is greatest there. Police work does not even compare.

 

[drop bear]

Nor am I

Really. You have anything other than you are a cop and get really scared?