Wing Chun vs MMA

[Spinoza]

Hey folks. Sorry I’ve taken a while to respond. I just closed on a house and started a new job.

I should start by clearing up something that seems to be clouded in a lot of confusion: I am not saying that there are not superior styles of training. Sparring regularly against people who do not practice the same MA as you, especially in an environment where as many moves as possible are allowed and you are both trying your damnedest to win, is extremely useful training for self defense.

However, no one MA style owns this style of training. Anyone can do that. And I agree that it is a wonderful tool for measuring your own success and preparedness.

What I question is whether or not it is a wonderful tool for measuring the realistic applications of one style vs another style of MA, and that the success of any one MA style is to be measured by its success in MMA competitions.

I used the word “fad” in an earlier conversation, and that was probably the wrong word. Perhaps “trend” is better. I don’t mean anything negative about this, but there are a lot of factors that go into a MA style’s popularity in MMA competitions. When I read about this some time back (and it has been a while), Judo was gaining more popularity among women while BJJ continued to keep its popularity among men. Is that because Judo is more effective for women and BJJ is more effective for men? I personally doubt that. The gym instructors I talked to accredited Judo’s growing popularity among women with Ronda Rousey’s success, which seems more likely.

So far as I know, Krav Maga is practically unheard of in MMA competitions. Does that mean it is not useful for self-defense? Again, I doubt it. Kung fu arts are much more popular in full-contact competitions in China; is that because kung fu is a superior striking art in the hands of people of Chinese descent?

Shuai jiao is very similar to Judo in a lot of ways, yet it remains a lot more popular in lei tai fighting than in Western MMA.

There are obviously a lot of cultural popularity issues, as well as simple hero mimicry. So much so that I cringe every time I hear someone refer to MMA a “scientific” comparison of the effectiveness of styles.

Finally, coming back to that whole training style issue I brought up earlier, there are TMA fighters that train in full contact fighting. There are MMA practitioners that earn their blue belt before even coming into physical contact with a resisting opponent. I would say that the style of training says more about a person’s self-defense preparedness than their MA style does, and that the TMA practitioner would likely fair better in a self-defense situation under these conditions than the MMA practitioner would.

And while Krav Maga hasn’t had a lot of MMA success, one of my friends who practices the art regularly trains with the wind knocked out of him and even with chalk knives and shock knives. I feel very comfortable saying that he would probably fair better in a self-defense situation against someone with a knife than would even the most experienced people in my Judo class.

Judo follows a similar mindset that MMA follows, hence why it's been used by several MMA fighters. We can even go a step further and point out that since Brazilian jiujitsu is a western variation of Judo, Judo is a core aspect of MMA itself.

People who have trained in crossfit have successfully defended themselves. And people who never trained in anything. And people who train in parkour.

Your conclusion doesn't necessarily follow your premise. Both might be effective, but if the sample size is small and without controls, it's really hard to say.

What we can say is that MMA is a very effective way to learn how to fight someone within the structure of competition against committed opponents at full speed. And it's reasonable to presume that these skills are not forgotten when the context changes and rules don't apply. While I can completely agree that a competition orientation could create some bad habits, the bad habits can be overcome also through training. But the skills remain well developed. The wrestler doesn't forget his skills. The judoka can just as easily throw you with your jacket as with a judo Gi. And we know this because it is well demonstrated against committed opponents in a competitive context.

Streetafying your martial arts isn't going to make you punch kick or choke any harder either. You either have solid basics that will work in both the street the gym or the arena or you don't. There are a few styles that don't translate across different environments but most of your basics do.

So OK. If you are a ripping hot sword fighter you could say your skills don't translate to a cage match. And fair enough. But if you have a cross over at all. Then the skills should be transferable.

If you take a boxer with better hand skills and challenge him to a bare knuckle match with eye pokes. The fight will still generally go to the better striker. Not the guy who has trained eye gouge specific.

 

[Steve]

Spinoza, I'll just throw out that there are superior styles of training. Not techniques or martial arts styles,. Rather, the way in which you teach someone a skill and them test their proficiency in that skill. How you train matters. How you test for proficiency matters.

If you think I am an MMA over wing chun guy, I have failed to be clear. I'm a good training over bad training guy. A lot of people here teach or train well. Some don't. And some of those who don't, think they do. if you get my drift.

 

[Phobius]

Got to say I agree with Steve as well, being that I am a Wing Chun guy myself. Still I think the training itself is key to success. Of course there are limits to this but most styles are proven at some time or other to work.

MMA I do not see evidence of having a superior training method, but I dont see anything stating it does not either. One key element I feel is crucial to training is sparring however. Call it what you want, do with it what you please, but train none the less.

 

[drop bear]

So far as I know, Krav Maga is practically unheard of in MMA competitions. Does that mean it is not useful for self-defense? Again, I doubt it. K

It dosent need to be not mma to be self defence worthy. It needs to justify itself based on its own merits.

So to make a statement that krav is good for self defence you would need incidents of self defence where krav is used.

 

[Hanzou]

Got to say I agree with Steve as well, being that I am a Wing Chun guy myself. Still I think the training itself is key to success. Of course there are limits to this but most styles are proven at some time or other to work.

MMA I do not see evidence of having a superior training method, but I dont see anything stating it does not either. One key element I feel is crucial to training is sparring however. Call it what you want, do with it what you please, but train none the less.

The reality is that Wing Chun guys are scrambling to deal with MMA on multiple levels, while MMA isn't concerned about WC at all. I see constant WC vids addressing boxing, BJJ, MMA, and other systems. I even see WC practitioners going into great depth on why WC doesn't work in the MMA environment (often reverting to some fairly bizarre arguments that makes themselves look pretty bad in the process).

That's a pretty profound difference, and indicates that there's something missing in WC that its practitioners are desperately trying to fill.

 

[Hanzou]

I used the word “fad” in an earlier conversation, and that was probably the wrong word. Perhaps “trend” is better. I don’t mean anything negative about this, but there are a lot of factors that go into a MA style’s popularity in MMA competitions. When I read about this some time back (and it has been a while), Judo was gaining more popularity among women while BJJ continued to keep its popularity among men. Is that because Judo is more effective for women and BJJ is more effective for men? I personally doubt that. The gym instructors I talked to accredited Judo’s growing popularity among women with Ronda Rousey’s success, which seems more likely.

The difference between the current MMA trend and previous martial arts fads is that there was never a means to prove one style over another. Most of the previous fads came from movies, not from actual fighting between stylists. The Kung Fu fad for example emerged from Kung Fu movies of the 60s and 70s. It was never a bunch of Kung Fu guys sitting around challenging other arts in a public forum, it was a bunch of Wushu stylists and actors performing spectacular stuff on a stage in Hong Kong. Kids saw Bruce Lee take down 20 guys with his bare hands, and they wanted to learn how to fight like him.

The MMA trend is a different animal altogether, and the reason its lasted longer than other fads is because it has a reality component to it. The only way the MMA trend ends is if something else comes along to supplant it, like an Aikido stylist entering MMA and throwing people around the octagon and snapping their wrists, or a Kung Fu master knocking people out with neck pinches and push hands.

Since that's never going to happen, the MMA trend is going to persist for a long time.

 

[Spinoza]

The difference between the current MMA trend and previous martial arts fads is that there was never a means to prove one style over another.

I still disagree that MMA is an effective means of doing so. And lei tai also involves competition between people of different martial arts styles.

Most of the previous fads came from movies, not from actual fighting between stylists.

Lei tai predates film.

The Kung Fu fad for example emerged from Kung Fu movies of the 60s and 70s. It was never a bunch of Kung Fu guys sitting around challenging other arts in a public forum, it was a bunch of Wushu stylists and actors performing spectacular stuff on a stage in Hong Kong.

There were never a bunch of kung fu guys sitting around challenging people of other arts in a public forum? Again, lei tai seems to disprove that.

Kids saw Bruce Lee take down 20 guys with his bare hands, and they wanted to learn how to fight like him.

The MMA trend is a different animal altogether, and the reason its lasted longer than other fads is because it has a reality component to it. The only way the MMA trend ends is if something else comes along to supplant it, like an Aikido stylist entering MMA and throwing people around the octagon and snapping their wrists, or a Kung Fu master knocking people out with neck pinches and push hands.[/quote]Well, I've brought up several reasons why I do not follow the same reasoning. And kung fu practitioners do, indeed, engage in contact competition, and they don't do so through neck pinches and push hands.

And push hands is just an exercise, not an attack technique.

Since that's never going to happen, the MMA trend is going to persist for a long time.

I'm sure it will. And the lei tai, which has been around for far longer, will likely continue as well.

 

[Spinoza]

It dosent need to be not mma to be self defence worthy. It needs to justify itself based on its own merits.

Absolutely. I've mostly been addressing the idea that MMA competitions are the ultimate testing ground for ranking the effectiveness of various martial arts styles.

So to make a statement that krav is good for self defence you would need incidents of self defence where krav is used.

Would such incidents be enough, or would they be considered anecdotes? The IDF doesn't seem to mind using Krav Maga in self defense.

 

[Hanzou]

I still disagree that MMA is an effective means of doing so. And lei tai also involves competition between people of different martial arts styles.

Lei tai predates film.

Where can we watch a televised Lei Tai match? Where are all the Lei Tai fighters entering the global MMA competition circuit?

There were never a bunch of kung fu guys sitting around challenging people of other arts in a public forum? Again, lei tai seems to disprove that.

See above.

Well, I've brought up several reasons why I do not follow the same reasoning. And kung fu practitioners do, indeed, engage in contact competition, and they don't do so through neck pinches and push hands.

I'm simply saying, you're going to need something to that effect to dislodge the MMA trend; Something that breaks the current rules on what is effective, just like the Gracies did in the UFC that started the MMA trend in the first place.

I'm sure it will. And the lei tai, which has been around for far longer, will likely continue as well.

As long as Lei Tai is under the surface and not seen by anyone but a select group of people that isn't going to amount to much. It's like the story of the old master in the mountain who can defeat all comers, yet no one knows exactly where he is, and he will never come down from the mountain.

EDIT:

Ah, I've found some "Lei Tai". It's called Kuoshu these days;

Yeah............

So that's full contact Kung Fu? Interesting.

 

[Phobius]

The reality is that Wing Chun guys are scrambling to deal with MMA on multiple levels, while MMA isn't concerned about WC at all. I see constant WC vids addressing boxing, BJJ, MMA, and other systems. I even see WC practitioners going into great depth on why WC doesn't work in the MMA environment (often reverting to some fairly bizarre arguments that makes themselves look pretty bad in the process).

That's a pretty profound difference, and indicates that there's something missing in WC that its practitioners are desperately trying to fill.

The reality is that you are on a forum. Since you are good at voicing your opinion you will also see a lot of WC guys that try to argue with you and as such given that your arguments are along the line of containing MMA in every other sentence. Chances are you will see a lot of people training WC in forums arguing against MMA. (Some WC guys love to argue, be it with each other or with others... perhaps too many people with an opinion in WC)

Problem being that how can you argue against a style that has no identity rather than what is found on television? The moment something new appears it will be integrated into MMA if worthy enough. Once that occurs MMA will change to adress these new techniques and in turn others are removed or trained less. Once more MMA will change into a neverending cycle where it changes to keep being as effective competition art it can be.

No other martial art I know has that behavior. Probably also one reason why most MMA practitioners have a solid base in some other art beforehand.

Me personally don´t feel it is anything strange with MMA being best suited for MMA type fights. Gracie´s have already proven to the world that leaving out groundgame no matter what art you practise will in a professional context lead to a quick fight where you will lose for sure.

MMA is not a bad mentality to have. Bad mentality in my point of view is when someone becomes so stuck in their art (be it MMA, WC or something else) so much that their entire argument is how it is the only art that matters and that no other art can beat it.

 

[ballen0351]

In a non-competitive art, there is a huge gap between training and testing,

No there isnt. The only people that believe this are people that don't train in Non-competitive arts

which leads to posts like yours above, where the metric that you default to is actually getting into a fight.

Thats kinda the point

Which happens to be bad self defense. It's inconsistent.

ok

So you test other things. You test on execution of kata. You write essays. You focus on testing abstracts like character and respect. Perhaps you test on a clinical evaluation of technique or light contact sparring. I've seen a lot of belt testing over the years in a variety of arts, and I've not seen any testing that involves getting into real fights.

Ok and I have no doubt if done Correctly the execution of my non-competitive art will save me if I ever need to use it

 

[Hanzou]

The reality is that you are on a forum. Since you are good at voicing your opinion you will also see a lot of WC guys that try to argue with you and as such given that your arguments are along the line of containing MMA in every other sentence. Changes are you will only see people training WC in forums arguing against MMA.

This goes quite a bit beyond forums. There's entire video essays dedicated to it;

And of course who could forget Wing Chun anti-grappling?

It's quite an interesting phenomenon.

Problem being that how can you argue against a style that has no identity rather than what is found on television? The moment something new appears it will be integrated into MMA if worthy enough. Once that occurs MMA will change to adress these new techniques and in turn others are removed or trained less. Once more MMA will change into a never-ending cycle where it changes to keep being as effective competition art it can be.

No other martial art I know has that behavior. Probably also one reason why most MMA practitioners have a solid base in some other art beforehand.

Well actually I do think MMA has an identity, I mean a MMA-style fighter is pretty recognizable because they tend to mix the same styles together which is essentially submission grappling and kickboxing. This is why I told Spinoza that the so-called "MMA fad" is never going to end until you break the notion that the only thing that works is submission grappling combined with kickboxing. Something outside that paradigm like Aikido, traditional Jujutsu, Karate, or Kung Fu could break it, but I don't see that ever happening for a variety of reasons. MMA fighters don't see it happening either, which is why you don't see MMA videos on how to counter Wing Chun techniques.

Me personally don´t feel it is anything strange with MMA being best suited for MMA type fights. Gracie´s have already proven to the world that leaving out groundgame no matter what art you practise will in a professional context lead to a quick fight where you will lose for sure.

MMA is not a bad mentality to have. Bad mentality in my point of view is when someone becomes so stuck in their art (be it MMA, WC or something else) so much that their entire argument is how it is the only art that matters and that no other art can beat it.

Again, the general consensus is that MMA is best suited for fighting period, because people have been fed 20+ years of MMA fighters beating the piss out of everybody.Thus, the perception now is that nothing beats MMA and its core styles. How do you snap that perception? Have some chick beat Holly Holms or Ronda Rousey using White Crane Style.

 

[drop bear]

Absolutely. I've mostly been addressing the idea that MMA competitions are the ultimate testing ground for ranking the effectiveness of various martial arts styles.

Would such incidents be enough, or would they be considered anecdotes? The IDF doesn't seem to mind using Krav Maga in self defense.

I was going to mention that. You ever fought an IDF guy? I haven't so where was it decided IDF guys are world class fighters?

It sounds cool. But what is the reality of that statement?

And that is before we even address whether or not you are being trained by the guy who trains the IDF. Which of course you are not.

So ignoring then mma as a testing ground why is krav effective?

 

[Steve]

I've said before, but self defense as a bar for measuring effectiveness is just not useful. The term is too vague and hard to nail down.

No there isnt. The only people that believe this are people that don't train in Non-competitive arts

do you have any idea how self serving and specious your statement is? The only people think texting while driving is stupid are those who don't do it.

Thats kinda the point

ok

Ok and I have no doubt if done Correctly the execution of my non-competitive art will save me if I ever need to use it

yeah, I get that. A terrible point, too, as I've explained Working as a cop, you have both the training and the means for testing that most non-cops won't have. And once again, a cop is as far away from self defense as fighting in a cagE.

 

[ballen0351]

I've said before, but self defense as a bar for measuring effectiveness is just not useful. The term is too vague and hard to nail down.

and I disagree

do you have any idea how self serving and specious your statement is? The only people think texting while driving is stupid are those who don't do it.

no more self serving then your comment.

yeah, I get that. A terrible point, too, as I've explained Working as a cop, you have both the training and the means for testing that most non-cops won't have. And once again, a cop is as far away from self defense as fighting in a cagE.

EXcept im not concerned with "testing" im concerned with surviving. I don't care if you don't like the way I choose to evaluate my system I don't need your approval to pick a style. Also being a cop is far closer to self defense then being in the ring.

 

[RTKDCMB]

there was never a means to prove one style over another.

Their still isn't.

 

[Steve]

and I disagree
no more self serving then your comment.
EXcept im not concerned with "testing" im concerned with surviving. I don't care if you don't like the way I choose to evaluate my system I don't need your approval to pick a style. Also being a cop is far closer to self defense then being in the ring.

Ballen, you're just feeling contrary today. Did you have a long day at work? It's ikay to be grumpy some times.

If you can't see the difference between being a cop and self defense for a civilian, you're as bad as the ring uber alles people. And there's no point discussing anything with a zealot.

 

[Phobius]

Well actually I do think MMA has an identity, I mean a MMA-style fighter is pretty recognizable because they tend to mix the same styles together which is essentially submission grappling and kickboxing. This is why I told Spinoza that the so-called "MMA fad" is never going to end until you break the notion that the only thing that works is submission grappling combined with kickboxing. Something outside that paradigm like Aikido, traditional Jujutsu, Karate, or Kung Fu could break it, but I don't see that ever happening for a variety of reasons. MMA fighters don't see it happening either, which is why you don't see MMA videos on how to counter Wing Chun techniques.

MMA identity is not constant, just take a look at how it has evolved the last few years. Problem with MMA is that it is allowed to be all the most efficient techniques based on the fact that you fight other MMA fighters. When someone introduces a new technique to rule the competition then MMA will adjust itself to it. This is not a constant behaviour.

Sparring and training hard however is not related to MMA, MMA is just one of those styles that need to have it as a major tool.

Problem is that I can not speak more of MMA because mostly I only get to see UFC fights, and UFC is not MMA. In such a controlled environment (in terms of who gets to fight and what skill base they need to have) there is not going to be many openings for people training TMA. Second problem is that those who dream about being UFC fighters will not study TMA, at least for long, but jump straight to flavor of the year. And finally some styles are more efficient for a young well trained body because some styles utilize body strength more than others. (BJJ is one of those styles that don't of course)

You can not fight in MMA without being an MMA fighter as far as I know.

Again, the general consensus is that MMA is best suited for fighting period, because people have been fed 20+ years of MMA fighters beating the piss out of everybody.Thus, the perception now is that nothing beats MMA and its core styles. How do you snap that perception? Have some chick beat Holly Holms or Ronda Rousey using White Crane Style.

You don't have someone change the perception, boredom kills the tv shows. Something new takes its place. TV is what made UFC great, UFC is what made MMA great. I just hope MMA does not disappear in terms of understanding the need to fight in order to learn fighting.

Finally because of all the talk of MMA, is there some way to watch world wide MMA fights (non UFC)?

 

[RTKDCMB]

Again, the general consensus is that MMA is best suited for fighting period, because people have been fed 20+ years of MMA fighters beating the piss out of everybody.Thus, the perception now is that nothing beats MMA and its core styles. How do you snap that perception?

Experts agree, everybody knows, its a well known fact, some people say, it stands to reason and other weasel words.

 

[ballen0351]

Ballen, you're just feeling contrary today. Did you have a long day at work? It's ikay to be grumpy some times.

If you can't see the difference between being a cop and self defense for a civilian, you're as bad as the ring uber alles people. And there's no point discussing anything with a zealot.

I can see the difference I didn't say they were the same. I said it's closer to reality then the ring. And since I've trained in an MMA gym with people training for the ring and am a Cop I've experienced both.