Wing Chun vs MMA

[kuniggety]

I would agree mostly and that would also be MMA vs any other martial art that doesn't do any sparring or tackling or whatever.
What do you think about the many MMA gyms that are exercise gyms, more like tae bo mma than mma training. They have mma classes with no contact or sparring? Heavy bag punching, some pad work. Groundwork movement drills with grappling dummies.

During the holidays I was ask to be a guest MMA instructor at a UFC Gym in an adjacent town. No partner work, no thai pad work, no clinch work unless it could be performed on a heavy bag and absolutely no sparring. for groundwork they had numerous grappling dummies to do drills on.
"Oh you don't want Muay Thai or MMA you just want a bag class?"
"This is our MMA training"

These people aren't going to have anything very applicable as well.

We have a very good relationship with another UFC Gym in another town about 60 miles away, I've taught there, their fighters come to us to spar and our fighters go there to spar as well. But this one gym appears to be just a workout gym even though they advertise Boxing, Muay Thai, and BJJ training. I've encounter a couple of other MMA gyms that are nothing but exercise gyms. If I'm seeing them there are surely a lot more out there.

I think one of the problems with the UFC gyms is the difference of signature vs franchise gyms. With signature gyms, you're more likely assured to get quality instruction. With franchise gyms, it's whatever/whoever the franchise wants to offer. I recently started learning from Jay Penn at the Waikele BJ Penn UFC Signature gym with Leandro Nyza as the head instructor and running the Honolulu gym. Then you have the famous incident (a couple of years ago now I think) of a franchise having a fake BB as their head instructor. I still haven't taken any of the striking classes yet though. From my understanding is that it depends on the "level" of the program offered. Level 1 is technique/fitness oriented, level 2 being more about sparring, and level 3 being fully comprehensive in what they teach.

 

[O'Malley]

Ok. How do you mesure that?

I mean this comes up a lot. You do a fight and someone says not a test for self defence because rules and gloves. But rarely does anyone come up with a decent alternative

The only legitimate way would be to consistently find yourself in self defence situations. As it is realistically difficult to realise on purpose (except by living a life where you often get attacked and giving up on common sense maybe?) you could alternatively pick up fights in the streets (kajukenbo actually developed with that method) but it would already be quite different from a real self defence situation (regarding distance, awareness of the threat, mindset or goals). Oh and it's kind of illegal.

 

[Spinoza]

Ok. How do you mesure that?

I mean this comes up a lot. You do a fight and someone says not a test for self defence because rules and gloves. But rarely does anyone come up with a decent alternative

Personally, I don't think there is an adequate test for comparing styles in realistic self defense situations. The best style is the one that you are able to find good instruction in and which you are willing to commit the time to learn. The chances of you needing your martial arts training in a self defense situation are rather small -- smaller still is the chance that you will need to defend yourself against another well-trained martial artist.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

I would agree mostly and that would also be MMA vs any other martial art that doesn't do any sparring or tackling or whatever.
What do you think about the many MMA gyms that are exercise gyms, more like tae bo mma than mma training. They have mma classes with no contact or sparring? Heavy bag punching, some pad work. Groundwork movement drills with grappling dummies.

During the holidays I was ask to be a guest MMA instructor at a UFC Gym in an adjacent town. No partner work, no thai pad work, no clinch work unless it could be performed on a heavy bag and absolutely no sparring. for groundwork they had numerous grappling dummies to do drills on.
"Oh you don't want Muay Thai or MMA you just want a bag class?"
"This is our MMA training"

Well, that's pretty horrifying. I hope that's not as widespread as you seem to imply with "many." I've certainly never come across it.

 

[lklawson]

My preference is for real world applications.

Oh.

In that case: Defensive Training Solutions

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[O'Malley]

Pretty useless in countries where carrying a weapon is prohibited (i.e. in Belgium even pepper sprays are outlawed and if you carry a knife you have to be damn convincing as to why you didn't leave it at home).

 

[Danny T]

Well, that's pretty horrifying. I hope that's not as widespread as you seem to imply with "many." I've certainly never come across it.

There are even organizations that provide MMA Workout Coach certifications one can get. I've even seen several articles for Home MMA Training for those who find the cost of a MMA Gym membership to expensive. These are exercise programs of bag work, body weight strength and flexibility work, some weight type training, and ground dummy exercises advertised as MMA Training or MMA Workouts.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

There are even organizations that provide MMA Workout Coach certifications one can get. I've even seen several articles for Home MMA Training for those who find the cost of a MMA Gym membership to expensive. These are exercise programs of bag work, body weight strength and flexibility work, some weight type training, and ground dummy exercises advertised as MMA Training or MMA Workouts.

 

[lklawson]

Pretty useless in countries where carrying a weapon is prohibited (i.e. in Belgium even pepper sprays are outlawed and if you carry a knife you have to be damn convincing as to why you didn't leave it at home).

I guess it's a good thing that 1) They're not based in Belgium 2) They offer other stuff too.

There's a reason that I am familiar with that particular establishment. I got my Rifle Instructor certification through them and I was recently contacted to help expand their program to include non-firearm methods, particularly those which are legal in their AOO.

I'll probably do it, but a lot of it depends on how much personal time I can shunt to the program.

 

[O'Malley]

Fair enough, I was just pointing out the fact that in some places you cannot carry guns (or weapons of any type) so that the answer you gave wasn't always appropriate. Good luck for your project!

 

[lklawson]

Fair enough, I was just pointing out the fact that in some places you cannot carry guns (or weapons of any type) so that the answer you gave wasn't always appropriate.

Yeah, I know because we've gotten bit with that many times before here on MT. However, Spinoza is in the general area of Austin, Texas, U.S.A. If not, I probably wouldn't have posted the suggestion, or at the very least would have been a bit more jestful, such as when I referenced Hojutsu (which, by the by, is apparently offered at Defense Training Solutions, a fact which I did not know until recently ).

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[drop bear]

The only legitimate way would be to consistently find yourself in self defence situations. As it is realistically difficult to realise on purpose (except by living a life where you often get attacked and giving up on common sense maybe?) you could alternatively pick up fights in the streets (kajukenbo actually developed with that method) but it would already be quite different from a real self defence situation (regarding distance, awareness of the threat, mindset or goals). Oh and it's kind of illegal.

Wasn't it kajukenbo one of the guys who got knocked out in that fight quest show?

 

[Steve]

There are even organizations that provide MMA Workout Coach certifications one can get. I've even seen several articles for Home MMA Training for those who find the cost of a MMA Gym membership to expensive. These are exercise programs of bag work, body weight strength and flexibility work, some weight type training, and ground dummy exercises advertised as MMA Training or MMA Workouts.

I don't see the problem here. Does anyone believe that people who train in an MMA workout program believes that they are learning to be MMA fighters? I don't, just as I don't actually believe that anyone who trains in Tae Bo would mistake what they're doing for training to be a competitive kickboxer. There are all kinds of great reasons to train LIKE an MMA fighter. I mentioned earlier in this thread that a common myth is that all MMA fighters are elite level athletes. At the same time, the myth has an element of truth, as people who compete in MMA tend to be pretty fit.

I'm also unsure what the actual point is here. What's the actual assertion here? Is it that MMA workouts are a bad idea? I don't necessarily agree, provided the goals and outcomes are made clear and there is no fraud involved. Is it that because these MMA workouts exist (we are told), then WC anti-grappling is effective? I don't get it.

 

[O'Malley]

Wasn't it kajukenbo one of the guys who got knocked out in that fight quest show?

You're trolling, right? I feel bad for not noticing it earlier.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

I don't see the problem here. Does anyone believe that people who train in an MMA workout program believes that they are learning to be MMA fighters? I don't, just as I don't actually believe that anyone who trains in Tae Bo would mistake what they're doing for training to be a competitive kickboxer. There are all kinds of great reasons to train LIKE an MMA fighter. I mentioned earlier in this thread that a common myth is that all MMA fighters are elite level athletes. At the same time, the myth has an element of truth, as people who compete in MMA tend to be pretty fit.

I'm also unsure what the actual point is here. What's the actual assertion here? Is it that MMA workouts are a bad idea? I don't necessarily agree, provided the goals and outcomes are made clear and there is no fraud involved. Is it that because these MMA workouts exist (we are told), then WC anti-grappling is effective? I don't get it.

Well, Tae Bo makes it clear in the name what you are getting. If someone was to teach a Tae Bo class and call it Tae Kwon Do, that would be a problem.

If someone wants to teach a fitness class with exercises inspired by the parts of MMA training that don't involve body contact or learning actual martial arts , that's great. Just don't call it MMA.

 

[Danny T]

I don't see the problem here. Does anyone believe that people who train in an MMA workout program believes that they are learning to be MMA fighters? I don't, just as I don't actually believe that anyone who trains in Tae Bo would mistake what they're doing for training to be a competitive kickboxer. There are all kinds of great reasons to train LIKE an MMA fighter. I mentioned earlier in this thread that a common myth is that all MMA fighters are elite level athletes. At the same time, the myth has an element of truth, as people who compete in MMA tend to be pretty fit.

I'm also unsure what the actual point is here. What's the actual assertion here? Is it that MMA workouts are a bad idea? I don't necessarily agree, provided the goals and outcomes are made clear and there is no fraud involved. Is it that because these MMA workouts exist (we are told), then WC anti-grappling is effective? I don't get it.

No Steve, absolutely no problem with them advertising and training as an 'Exercise' Program.
It is that they advertise they are MMA gyms than don't do MMA. They advertise and put themselves out as MMA coaches and trainers. When their programs have nothing to do with the martial arts they are simply an exercise program. No Martial Art training, just punch the bag, do some body weight exercises, so some ground n pound punching on a dummy, but they say they are doing MMA training. And believe it or not yes there are many who think they are training as a mma fighter. As my example of the gym that invited me in as a guest 'MMA Instructor' for MMA training. When I asked about what they wanted as for what to work and ageed to go I was told they wanted a good striking and ground session. It was upon arriving that I was told to do whatever bag work drills or ground drills with no contact, no sparring. They advertise as a MMA Gym and this is a their MMA Class, not a MMA Exercise Class.

I have an MMA class also that isn't a Fighter Class but we do take-downs & throws, we do light sparring where we kick and punch each other, we do arm & leg locks, we do chokes. It is an MMA Training Class and these people know this is not fighter training. I also have a Fighter Class that is at a much greater level of sparring contact and exercising.

 

[Steve]

No Steve, absolutely no problem with them advertising and training as an 'Exercise' Program.
It is that they advertise they are MMA gyms than don't do MMA. They advertise and put themselves out as MMA coaches and trainers. When their programs have nothing to do with the martial arts they are simply an exercise program. No Martial Art training, just punch the bag, do some body weight exercises, so some ground n pound punching on a dummy, but they say they are doing MMA training. And believe it or not yes there are many who think they are training as a mma fighter. As my example of the gym that invited me in as a guest 'MMA Instructor' for MMA training. When I asked about what they wanted as for what to work and ageed to go I was told they wanted a good striking and ground session. It was upon arriving that I was told to do whatever bag work drills or ground drills with no contact, no sparring. They advertise as a MMA Gym and this is a their MMA Class, not a MMA Exercise Class.

I have an MMA class also that isn't a Fighter Class but we do take-downs & throws, we do light sparring where we kick and punch each other, we do arm & leg locks, we do chokes. It is an MMA Training Class and these people know this is not fighter training. I also have a Fighter Class that is at a much greater level of sparring contact and exercising.

So, we're not talking about MMA, really. We're talking about frauds. Is the point that you're trying to make that these WC guys who are publishing their "anti-grappling" videos are frauds?

I hear what you're saying, I think. I'm just not sure where you're headed.

For what it's worth, I'm also not sure we know enough to know whether this really is a systemic issue or just some localized numbskulls in LA taking advantage of some naïve people.

 

[Danny T]

The conversation came about as a response to Hanzou stating:
"Despite the fact that MMA is "sport fighting", sport fighting is quite a bit more applicable to the concepts present in traditional MAs like Wing Chun.

For example, if someone punches or kicks you, is it better that you got punched and kicked consistently in a MMA gym over a WC gym where they never sparred?

If someone tries to tackle or wrestle you to the ground, is it better that you learned take down defense in a MMA gym over a WC gym where they never dealt with those concepts?

If someone knocks you to the ground and gets on top of you, is it better that you learned how to escape ground positions/learned ground fighting in a MMA gym over a WC gym where they never went over it?"

I agreed mostly with him but what about those MMA gyms that advertised they train MMA but are actually MMA 'Exercise' gyms where they never spar either.

 

[Steve]

The conversation came about as a response to Hanzou stating:
"Despite the fact that MMA is "sport fighting", sport fighting is quite a bit more applicable to the concepts present in traditional MAs like Wing Chun.

For example, if someone punches or kicks you, is it better that you got punched and kicked consistently in a MMA gym over a WC gym where they never sparred?

If someone tries to tackle or wrestle you to the ground, is it better that you learned take down defense in a MMA gym over a WC gym where they never dealt with those concepts?

If someone knocks you to the ground and gets on top of you, is it better that you learned how to escape ground positions/learned ground fighting in a MMA gym over a WC gym where they never went over it?"

I agreed mostly with him but what about those MMA gyms that advertised they train MMA but are actually MMA 'Exercise' gyms where they never spar either.

ah. Okay. I'm tracking now. I think we can all agree that an MMA exercise routine is unlikely to produce a lot of practical skills. can we also agree that an MMA gym as you describe it is the exception and not the rule?

 

[Drose427]

ah. Okay. I'm tracking now. I think we can all agree that an MMA exercise routine is unlikely to produce a lot of practical skills. can we also agree that an MMA gym as you describe it is the exception and not the rule?

I'd say it depends entirely on if one can do it with other systems as well.