Wing Chun vs MMA

[Hanzou]

This point is irrelevant,

I know, which is why I didn't bring it up.

 

[Steve]

One thing to note here. When people here comment on MMA, there is a tendency to say things like "professional athletes" and "elite level conditioning." While this is certainly true in the ufc, there are many people who train in MMA who are not professional athletes.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Because kicboxing is the most efficient way to fight.

- When both you and your opponent have right leg forward, the moment that your opponent switches sides and changes his left side forward, the moment that your back leg roundhouse kick kicks out at his belly.
- When your opponent moves in toward you, you use your low roundhouse kick to hit on his upper leg to interrupt his forward movement.

There are some effective strategies that are used in kickboxing and MMA that are not addressed in most of the TMA.

 

[Phobius]

I was going to bring up the concepts idea. As it gets put out a bit.

I think matching concepts can create the baggage that you find in the anti grapple.

Bjj for example mostly dosent do this doubtful when say pulling a move from wrestling or something even considers it.

The problem with the video is that someone is trying to take something from for example BJJ and change it to match WC. Instead take something that can be integrated well with your style in its current shape and youre better off.

Why change BJJ, it is already in itself changing and adapting to be the best at its game. Beliving you can make a better ground fighting game without doing proper groundfighting is arrogant and stupid. So I say, as training WC, that BJJ for me works well together with WC in its own shape. Of course with less focus on gi so no, I would not consider myself equal or close to a black belt BJJ practitioner, not that I would come close to thinking that any way.

Might however some day go and study BJJ for more long term. There however are not enough hours of the day.

Of course my school is pro mixing the way Bruce Lee said. Cant say MMA given it now is an art in itself and no longer a concept.

All these versuses threads are silly. No two people are equal. And you can only be better if you train and continue to train something.

 

[Tez3]

- When both you and your opponent have right leg forward, the moment that your opponent switches sides and changes his left side forward, the moment that your back leg roundhouse kick kicks out at his belly.
- When your opponent moves in toward you, you use your low roundhouse kick to hit on his upper leg to interrupt his forward movement.

There are some effective strategies that are used in kickboxing and MMA that are not addressed in most of the TMA.

What makes you think that?
The moves you describe aren't confined to kick boxing, that's also karate. Kick boxing isn't a unique style, where do you think the techniques come from? Kick boxing is a derivative of full contact karate.

 

[drop bear]

The problem with the video is that someone is trying to take something from for example BJJ and change it to match WC. Instead take something that can be integrated well with your style in its current shape and youre better off.

Why change BJJ, it is already in itself changing and adapting to be the best at its game. Beliving you can make a better ground fighting game without doing proper groundfighting is arrogant and stupid. So I say, as training WC, that BJJ for me works well together with WC in its own shape. Of course with less focus on gi so no, I would not consider myself equal or close to a black belt BJJ practitioner, not that I would come close to thinking that any way.

Might however some day go and study BJJ for more long term. There however are not enough hours of the day.

Of course my school is pro mixing the way Bruce Lee said. Cant say MMA given it now is an art in itself and no longer a concept.

All these versuses threads are silly. No two people are equal. And you can only be better if you train and continue to train something.

Wait. It is not the verses thread it is the people discussing it.

(See what I did there)

But you can match up wing chun and mma and see where they sit in a general sort of way. The concepts of one will be weak to the concepts of the other. Now you can either get hurt,ignore it or do something bout it.

If you classically chain punch your way into a guy using forward pressure you are asking to be double legged. You are basically doing everything a grappler wants you to do.

It seems reasonable to be aware of this. So that you can make a tactical shift and use other methods.

Mma constantly addresses what is a conflict within its own style in that you have to expose a weakness.

 

[drop bear]

- When both you and your opponent have right leg forward, the moment that your opponent switches sides and changes his left side forward, the moment that your back leg roundhouse kick kicks out at his belly.
- When your opponent moves in toward you, you use your low roundhouse kick to hit on his upper leg to interrupt his forward movement.

There are some effective strategies that are used in kickboxing and MMA that are not addressed in most of the TMA.

There are more people sharing and testing strategys now. So all martial arts are being exposed to different concepts.

 

[Phobius]

If you classically chain punch your way into a guy using forward pressure you are asking to be double legged. You are basically doing everything a grappler wants you to do.

Except chain punch is not a technique. It is just a way to teach you to not halt your attack if the first one hits but to keep punching until the guy can no longer breath.

Do not trust what you see on YouTube. Guys running forward while chain punching are shmucks (sp?).

 

[Spinoza]

Typically if someone is asking this question, they're asking which MA will make them a better fighter. If we have a martial art that the vast majority of professional fighters pick up because it makes them a better fighters, versus a martial art that almost no fighters pick up because it doesn't make them a better fighter, then the choice should be clear.

If that is what he meant to ask, then he didn't ask the right question. I don't doubt that practicing MMA is extremely useful for self defense. I do doubt that the measure of an art's effectiveness in realistic self defense scenarios is determined by prolonged sport fighting with other martial artists on a mat with padded gloves and a ref. Whether or not you intentionally take the fight to the ground, for example, will mean different considerations for each scenario.

 

[Hanzou]

Despite the fact that MMA is "sport fighting", sport fighting is quite a bit more applicable to the concepts present in traditional MAs like Wing Chun.

For example, if someone punches or kicks you, is it better that you got punched and kicked consistently in a MMA gym over a WC gym where they never sparred?

If someone tries to tackle or wrestle you to the ground, is it better that you learned take down defense in a MMA gym over a WC gym where they never dealt with those concepts?

If someone knocks you to the ground and gets on top of you, is it better that you learned how to escape ground positions/learned ground fighting in a MMA gym over a WC gym where they never went over it?

If you're fighting with someone and have to take them out quickly, is it better that you learned chokes from a MMA gym over a WC gym where they never taught it?

Additionally, if you have to fight for a long time in a SD scenario, is it not better that in a MMA gym you're trained to fight for multiple rounds of constant fighting over a WC gym where that simply isn't encouraged?

These are all things that should be considered.

 

[drop bear]

Except chain punch is not a technique. It is just a way to teach you to not halt your attack if the first one hits but to keep punching until the guy can no longer breath.

Do not trust what you see on YouTube. Guys running forward while chain punching are shmucks (sp?).

But someone is obviously doing it. Because we do see it on YouTube. So we can use the comparison of mma vs chun here to identify why they are schmucks.

 

[drop bear]

If that is what he meant to ask, then he didn't ask the right question. I don't doubt that practicing MMA is extremely useful for self defense. I do doubt that the measure of an art's effectiveness in realistic self defense scenarios is determined by prolonged sport fighting with other martial artists on a mat with padded gloves and a ref. Whether or not you intentionally take the fight to the ground, for example, will mean different considerations for each scenario.

What is the mesure of self defence then?

 

[Phobius]

But someone is obviously doing it. Because we do see it on YouTube. So we can use the comparison of mma vs chun here to identify why they are schmucks.

There are guys doing a lot of things on YouTube, does not mean it is smart. To believe that you should follow their examples or to think their examples are proof would just serve as a negative remark on your own intelligence.

 

[Danny T]

Despite the fact that MMA is "sport fighting", sport fighting is quite a bit more applicable to the concepts present in traditional MAs like Wing Chun.

For example, if someone punches or kicks you, is it better that you got punched and kicked consistently in a MMA gym over a WC gym where they never sparred?

If someone tries to tackle or wrestle you to the ground, is it better that you learned take down defense in a MMA gym over a WC gym where they never dealt with those concepts?

If someone knocks you to the ground and gets on top of you, is it better that you learned how to escape ground positions/learned ground fighting in a MMA gym over a WC gym where they never went over it?

If you're fighting with someone and have to take them out quickly, is it better that you learned chokes from a MMA gym over a WC gym where they never taught it?

Additionally, if you have to fight for a long time in a SD scenario, is it not better that in a MMA gym you're trained to fight for multiple rounds of constant fighting over a WC gym where that simply isn't encouraged?

These are all things that should be considered.

I would agree mostly and that would also be MMA vs any other martial art that doesn't do any sparring or tackling or whatever.
What do you think about the many MMA gyms that are exercise gyms, more like tae bo mma than mma training. They have mma classes with no contact or sparring? Heavy bag punching, some pad work. Groundwork movement drills with grappling dummies.

During the holidays I was ask to be a guest MMA instructor at a UFC Gym in an adjacent town. No partner work, no thai pad work, no clinch work unless it could be performed on a heavy bag and absolutely no sparring. for groundwork they had numerous grappling dummies to do drills on.
"Oh you don't want Muay Thai or MMA you just want a bag class?"
"This is our MMA training"

These people aren't going to have anything very applicable as well.

We have a very good relationship with another UFC Gym in another town about 60 miles away, I've taught there, their fighters come to us to spar and our fighters go there to spar as well. But this one gym appears to be just a workout gym even though they advertise Boxing, Muay Thai, and BJJ training. I've encounter a couple of other MMA gyms that are nothing but exercise gyms. If I'm seeing them there are surely a lot more out there.

 

[Spinoza]

What is the mesure of self defence then?

My preference is for real world applications. We can argue all we want about whether or not karate/WC/[insert whatever style you like here] is effective for self defense, but if people have used it effectively for self defense, then it is effective for self defense as far as I'm concerned.

 

[Hanzou]

I would agree mostly and that would also be MMA vs any other martial art that doesn't do any sparring or tackling or whatever.
What do you think about the many MMA gyms that are exercise gyms, more like tae bo mma than mma training. They have mma classes with no contact or sparring? Heavy bag punching, some pad work. Groundwork movement drills with grappling dummies.

During the holidays I was ask to be a guest MMA instructor at a UFC Gym in an adjacent town. No partner work, no thai pad work, no clinch work unless it could be performed on a heavy bag and absolutely no sparring. for groundwork they had numerous grappling dummies to do drills on.
"Oh you don't want Muay Thai or MMA you just want a bag class?"
"This is our MMA training"

These people aren't going to have anything very applicable as well.

We have a very good relationship with another UFC Gym in another town about 60 miles away, I've taught there, their fighters come to us to spar and our fighters go there to spar as well. But this one gym appears to be just a workout gym even though they advertise Boxing, Muay Thai, and BJJ training. I've encounter a couple of other MMA gyms that are nothing but exercise gyms. If I'm seeing them there are surely a lot more out there.

On the fighting side of things, yeah they're not going to get much out of that. In terms of fitness and exercise, they'll probably get a great deal, but when the rubber hits the road, they're going to be in a lot of trouble.

I think you're going to see more of that because a lot of people simply don't like to fight, even if its just practice. There's not a lot of professionals who don't want to go to work on Monday with black eyes or scars on their face. Even in my Bjj school where no one is actually going to get (seriously) hurt, there's a small but solid amount of people who never roll. Since they don't roll, their skills stagnate, they get smashed a few times in drills, and they eventually end up leaving Bjj completely.

My fear is that we're going to eventually have a watering down of the sport, and people get stripes and belts despite never rolling to get them. I know Ryron and Rener Gracie are already preaching the nonsense that you shouldn't roll until you're a blue belt. The very idea makes me want to vomit.

 

[Danny T]

On the fighting side of things, yeah they're not going to get much out of that. In terms of fitness and exercise, they'll probably get a great deal, but when the rubber hits the road, they're going to be in a lot of trouble.

I think you're going to see more of that because a lot of people simply don't like to fight, even if its just practice. There's not a lot of professionals who don't want to go to work on Monday with black eyes or scars on their face. Even in my Bjj school where no one is actually going to get (seriously) hurt, there's a small but solid amount of people who never roll. Since they don't roll, their skills stagnate, they get smashed a few times in drills, and they eventually end up leaving Bjj completely.

My fear is that we're going to eventually have a watering down of the sport, and people get stripes and belts despite never rolling to get them. I know Ryron and Rener Gracie are already preaching the nonsense that you shouldn't roll until you're a blue belt. The very idea makes me want to vomit.

It is happening, has been for several years. Gyms can not make it with just fighters so the programs are redesigned for the general public. Make it fun, make it exciting, make it family oriented, make it for the kids and parents will pay.

 

[drop bear]

My preference is for real world applications. We can argue all we want about whether or not karate/WC/[insert whatever style you like here] is effective for self defense, but if people have used it effectively for self defense, then it is effective for self defense as far as I'm concerned.

Ok. How do you mesure that?

I mean this comes up a lot. You do a fight and someone says not a test for self defence because rules and gloves. But rarely does anyone come up with a decent alternative

 

[drop bear]

What makes you think that?
The moves you describe aren't confined to kick boxing, that's also karate. Kick boxing isn't a unique style, where do you think the techniques come from? Kick boxing is a derivative of full contact karate.

Yet mma is not a derivative of bjj?

 

[drop bear]

On the fighting side of things, yeah they're not going to get much out of that. In terms of fitness and exercise, they'll probably get a great deal, but when the rubber hits the road, they're going to be in a lot of trouble.

I think you're going to see more of that because a lot of people simply don't like to fight, even if its just practice. There's not a lot of professionals who don't want to go to work on Monday with black eyes or scars on their face. Even in my Bjj school where no one is actually going to get (seriously) hurt, there's a small but solid amount of people who never roll. Since they don't roll, their skills stagnate, they get smashed a few times in drills, and they eventually end up leaving Bjj completely.

My fear is that we're going to eventually have a watering down of the sport, and people get stripes and belts despite never rolling to get them. I know Ryron and Rener Gracie are already preaching the nonsense that you shouldn't roll until you're a blue belt. The very idea makes me want to vomit.

It is not so much the hobbiests that water down the sport. It is the hobbiests that think they have the same ability as the fighters where things get weird.

Having to change reality to save egos.