Wing Chun vs MMA

[Hanzou]

There's another factor that affects who enters competitions like that: who is interested. I've noticed that the atmosphere in some schools and styles is simply not attractive to those who want to hit someone else hard enough to knock them out in a competition. Those styles/schools will likely never be represented significantly in NHB competition, because the practitioners aren't interested.

Take me, for instance. There was a time I could have competed in Judo competitions, and likely would have done okay. I never had enough interest to do so. That absence doesn't mean my techniques wouldn't work there (my experience rolling with Judoka and suggests otherwise).

Yeah, but the idea that every single participant in a given style is not interested in NHB competition is a little hard to believe.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

If he is a fundimentaly better martial artist. The circumstances make less difference.

Not true. Much of his training depends upon using the mats as his friend. The street's surface is rarely your friend. There are many other points. Yes, being a fundamentally better martial artist makes a difference, but I'd expect us to be equal in that respect if we are equal in training and experience. I'm not a stranger to Judo - I studied it before I got into my primary art. In fact, it's the first art I used for self-defense. Are you as familiar with my training as I am with Judo?

 

[Hanzou]

My point wasn't to compare "MMA striking" to WC, but to comment that MMA fighters have been preparing against strikes for a long time. If their initial work helped them against WC movements, as well as others, there would be no need to specifically target WC. You only target something where it exposes a weakness, and perhaps they collectively covered that area as they prepared for the multitude of other striking arts and their varied approaches.

My point is that WC is significantly different than the type of striking a MMA fighter would be used to. So it stands to reason that if a WC fighter entered MMA and used WC striking on a MMA fighter, that fighter wouldn't be able to counter it. The same thing occurred when Ryan Hall pulled 50/50 guard in TUF competition, his opponents really had no answer for it, and that's largely how he ended up winning the competition. Ronda Rousey did the same thing with Judo, since that grappling style wasn't common for a lot fighters, she was able to utilize her unique grappling skill to counter the common grappling style of MMA which is a mix of wrestling standup and BJJ submission grappling.

So if the WC's version of Hall or Rousey entered MMA, the same thing would happen.

This is the other side of the coin. Now you're talking about what they use, rather than what they defend against. BJJ does seem to be the best adaptation to MMA needs for someone who has their strikes down. I don't know enough of those needs to say why, except to suppose that the way BBJ'rs roll must adapt more cleanly than (for instance) how Judo players compete.

I was addressing the idea that individual styles aren't focused on, and I was pointing out that Bjj is one of the few that are if the fighter in question has superb skill in it. Roused had a similar situation with her Judo as her opponents sought to counter it.

Not true. Much of his training depends upon using the mats as his friend. The street's surface is rarely your friend. There are many other points. Yes, being a fundamentally better martial artist makes a difference, but I'd expect us to be equal in that respect if we are equal in training and experience. I'm not a stranger to Judo - I studied it before I got into my primary art. In fact, it's the first art I used for self-defense. Are you as familiar with my training as I am with Judo?

Actually the concrete would be his friend, since he'd be throwing you on it.

High level Judoka can even make it so you fall in really bad ways even if you have a solid break fall.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Yeah, but the idea that every single participant in a given style is not interested in NHB competition is a little hard to believe.

Did you miss the word "significantly"? If a very small number of those people are interested, the likelihood of someone rising to the top is small (simple probability). Add to that the fact that those few will have very little to draw on as far as how to adapt the art to competition (whereas those from competitive styles have generations of that information), and you have a differentiator.

Or, it could be the art's techniques are ill-suited to that sort of use.

Or, it could be that the art isn't effective.

Too many people jump to that last possibility, and declare it a conclusion. That's a huge fallacy in reasoning.

 

[Hanzou]

Did you miss the word "significantly"? If a very small number of those people are interested, the likelihood of someone rising to the top is small (simple probability). Add to that the fact that those few will have very little to draw on as far as how to adapt the art to competition (whereas those from competitive styles have generations of that information), and you have a differentiator.

Or, it could be the art's techniques are ill-suited to that sort of use.

Or, it could be that the art isn't effective.

Too many people jump to that last possibility, and declare it a conclusion. That's a huge fallacy in reasoning.

What techniques would be ill-suited for competitive/fighting use?

 

[Phobius]

For many non-competitive styles I believe the path to fight in MMA is simply too long to be of interest.

Doubt it is like this everywhere but at least where I live if you want to have a chance of entering an MMA competition you need to train in MMA. If you train MMA you need to use the techniques they train, otherwise you will never advance long enough to be allowed to fight.

I wish MMA never got to be viewed as a style, would make my area much more interesting. Because without losing a couple of fights there is simply no way to learn to improve.

Secondly if you are serious about competing in MMA you want to win, as such you optimize you input and output. MMA I personally believe to be a quicker path where lack of knowledge can be bridged by simply training harder and having better physics.

Same goes for styles like boxing, from my point of view it breeds fighters rapidly. Not experts but decent fighters pop up just after a year of training. Sadly I can not say the same for TMA, it requires more devotion and studying.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Actually the concrete would be his friend, since he'd be throwing you on it.

High level Judoka can even make it so you fall in really bad ways even if you have a solid break fall.

You're ignoring the fact that I am equally capable of making them fall, and I practice looking for ways to make those falls worse on hard surfaces. And I, probably (though not certainly) unlike them, have practiced movement on uneven surfaces, broken surfaces, etc., to improve my chances when the mats aren't there. I also practice strikes, which most (again not all) Judoka don't.

Your'e simply declaring that a Judoka at my same level is better and would win if we had a street confrontation, because they compete. That's an assumption, based on nothing but opinion.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

What techniques would be ill-suited for competitive/fighting use?

Techniques that are designed for someone who is enraged, for one example. Those techniques are designed to take advantage of low control and high commitment. The attacks spawned by that rage are often inefficient, so won't likely show up in a competition (except in Karate Kid and Van Damme movies).

Time spent training to handle multiple attackers (movement, etc.) is also wasted for competition.

 

[Hanzou]

You're ignoring the fact that I am equally capable of making them fall, and I practice looking for ways to make those falls worse on hard surfaces. And I, probably (though not certainly) unlike them, have practiced movement on uneven surfaces, broken surfaces, etc., to improve my chances when the mats aren't there. I also practice strikes, which most (again not all) Judoka don't.

Your'e simply declaring that a Judoka at my same level is better and would win if we had a street confrontation, because they compete. That's an assumption, based on nothing but opinion.

No, I'm declaring that a Judoka can make their techniques work regardless of the surface they're doing the technique on.

 

[ballen0351]

No, I'm declaring that a Judoka can make their techniques work regardless of the surface they're doing the technique on.

sometimes

 

[Hanzou]

Techniques that are designed for someone who is enraged, for one example. Those techniques are designed to take advantage of low control and high commitment. The attacks spawned by that rage are often inefficient, so won't likely show up in a competition (except in Karate Kid and Van Damme movies).

So you're assuming that no one has ever become enraged or frustrated in the ring/competition, or that someone who is highly trained in a style that utilizes control wouldn't be able to control an enraged person?

Time spent training to handle multiple attackers (movement, etc.) is also wasted for competition.

Yeah, that's not true. I've been taught multiple attacker techniques/principles in Bjj.

 

[Hanzou]

sometimes

Most of the time.

 

[drop bear]

Not true. Much of his training depends upon using the mats as his friend. The street's surface is rarely your friend. There are many other points. Yes, being a fundamentally better martial artist makes a difference, but I'd expect us to be equal in that respect if we are equal in training and experience. I'm not a stranger to Judo - I studied it before I got into my primary art. In fact, it's the first art I used for self-defense. Are you as familiar with my training as I am with Judo?

Is your skill level about the same as a judo champion?

I mean the distinction is not skill level because you are fighting judo champ on your ground.

People think this gives them the advantage because judo guy has only trained for competition.

I think you would have to find some very funky enviroments to make up for that avility difference.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

No, I'm declaring that a Judoka can make their techniques work regardless of the surface they're doing the technique on.

I never said they couldn't. I just said that their training uses the mat as an aid. Those techniques are different on concrete. You suggested it would aid them because they'd be throwing me, which assumes I don't throw them. Of course they can make them work. Some of what they are used to, however (and, of course, some of what I'm used to) won't work as nicely when there's not a cushy surface to work with. I've taken falls and grappled on surfaces other than grappling mats, for this purpose. Many judoka haven't. Of course, if this judoka in question has a self-defense mindset, he will have done that, too.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Is your skill level about the same as a judo champion?

I mean the distinction is not skill level because you are fighting judo champ on your ground.

People think this gives them the advantage because judo guy has only trained for competition.

I think you would have to find some very funky enviroments to make up for that avility difference.

You're missing a few points in between. I already commented that a judo champion puts in way more training and conditioning than me, and doesn't have the joint issues I do (or he wouldn't be a champion). I was talking about a judoka of similar experience and skill, saying that training the way I do (using odd surfaces at times) gives me an advantage over someone who trains solely for competition, since they'd have no use for similar training.

You really should read more closely before you post snarky comments, attempting to put people in their place.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

So you're assuming that no one has ever become enraged or frustrated in the ring/competition, or that someone who is highly trained in a style that utilizes control wouldn't be able to control an enraged person?

No, I'm making no such assumption. Stop trying to put weak reasoning behind my words.

What I'm assuming is that an enraged competitor is rare, while an enraged bar attack is probably more the norm. And I also didn't say a trained person who uses control can't control an enraged person. What I said was that there are approaches taught in self-defense that are specifically designed to take advantage of this "emotional hijacking" by the limbic system. Since this is often present in attacks of passion (rather than robberies, etc.), it's reasonable to learn to make use of the errors it creates. Since it would be less common in the ring, it may not make sense to train that same approach for competition. That's not about whether other techniques would work, but about whether those approaches for leveraging someones rage are of much use in higher levels of competition. People likely don't get to compete at relatively high levels if they can't control themselves - they'd lose too often to the cooler heads in the ring.

Yeah, that's not true. I've been taught multiple attacker techniques/principles in Bjj.

That you've trained it doesn't mean it's useful for competition, which is what I actually referred to. You seem determined to make my comments out to be some slander of competition and any school that competes or trains for competition. I have zero problem with them, have friends who run some of them, and have even visited and trained at some of them. Some (relatively few, in my experience - like the first part of the Gracie curriculum, IIRC) competition styles and schools incorporate self-defense, as well. If they do, that's not a purely competition school. Not better or worse, but different, and more useful for someone who wants to prepare for self-defense.

 

[Hanzou]

No, I'm making no such assumption. Stop trying to put weak reasoning behind my words.

What I'm assuming is that an enraged competitor is rare, while an enraged bar attack is probably more the norm. And I also didn't say a trained person who uses control can't control an enraged person. What I said was that there are approaches taught in self-defense that are specifically designed to take advantage of this "emotional hijacking" by the limbic system. Since this is often present in attacks of passion (rather than robberies, etc.), it's reasonable to learn to make use of the errors it creates. Since it would be less common in the ring, it may not make sense to train that same approach for competition. That's not about whether other techniques would work, but about whether those approaches for leveraging someones rage are of much use in higher levels of competition. People likely don't get to compete at relatively high levels if they can't control themselves - they'd lose too often to the cooler heads in the ring.

Which is nonsense. Competitors do get frustrated, enraged, desperate, etc. Heck, that can happen when your sparring/rolling while training. All of that alters their fighting ability, and there's no reason to believe that a sport martial artist wouldn't be able to handle an enraged assailant as well (if not better) than a traditional martial artist can.

Further, unless you're some kind of street fighter who gets into altercations constantly, a sport martial artist is more likely to experience those emotional shifts than a traditional martial artist, and be better able to handle that situation.

That you've trained it doesn't mean it's useful for competition, which is what I actually referred to.

Knee on belly is useful for multiple opponents and competition. Cain Velasquez used that exact technique to win the UFC HW championship.

That's one example of many.

 

[drop bear]

You're missing a few points in between. I already commented that a judo champion puts in way more training and conditioning than me, and doesn't have the joint issues I do (or he wouldn't be a champion). I was talking about a judoka of similar experience and skill, saying that training the way I do (using odd surfaces at times) gives me an advantage over someone who trains solely for competition, since they'd have no use for similar training.

You really should read more closely before you post snarky comments, attempting to put people in their place.

Which bit was snarky out of interests sakes?

Anyway we were judging the merits of the practitioner by their specific skill set. So a person who competes at judo is good but only for competition. So the fact he is a judo champion does not really factor in. Technically this judo champion is of equal or lesser skill on the uneven pavement depending if he trained for the street or not.

Now if the above does not sound all that realistic. Then maybe we need to consider sports fighters as martial artists in their own right and not just suited to competition.


"Yes, they tend to practically train for competition fighting so they tend to practically fair better in competition fighting. Their training and their interests are both a factor."

 

[Phobius]

A practitioner studies a martial art, no matter whether they compete or not.

Problem could be that a contender may put some effort in learning tools that are not usable for street/self defense but very viable for competition under rules. (Sort of like seeing some grapplers have head forward and low arms while standing)
Now if you practise the same amount of time as someone else, and you spend 20% of that time on teaching your body to automatically do stuff you should never do when in a real fight, that still means you train 80% on doing stuff correctly.

Now imagine if this guy trains twice as hard as anyone else just to get an edge in competition, then yes he will control his opponent without much worries.

Now if the table is turned and one guy trains twice as hard but never competes, facing an opponent that does compete and trains quite a bit less. Imagine who would win most likely.

Competition has nothing to do with being used to fighting with resistance or having an opponent. Sparring is not a training tool for competitions. It is a training tool period.

 

[Paul_D]

Problem could be that a contender may put some effort in learning tools that are not usable for street/self defense but very viable for competition under rules.........Now if you practise the same amount of time as someone else, and you spend 20% of that time on teaching your body to automatically do stuff you should never do when in a real fight.......

Self defence and getting into "real fights" are two different things. If you get in to a fight you are not defending yourself, you are breaking the law.