Wing Chun vs MMA

[Spinoza]

(Sorry, I'm having issues with the quote button, so hopefully this works)

The word, like all words, can mean different things in different contexts. I linked to a Merriam-Webster definition that matches the way I was using the word. But like I said, if it is causing confusion and there is a better term, I'll happily use it. I understand the call-out, but obviously neither one of us wants it to become a sticking point for the discussion. Perhaps we can just say non-LEO?

 

[lklawson]

Perhaps we can just say non-LEO?

That's what I usually do.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[Gerry Seymour]

You've seriously not aware of WC "anti-grappling" and other training methods developed to specifically deal with MMA fighters?

Conversely, I have yet to attend a MMA session where we deal with how to stop a WC practitioner from knocking us out.

And clearly it is about what, since you're not seeing WC guys entering NHB competitions and doing well. I mean, if all styles are equal, than we should see equal representation of styles. However we don't see that. Instead, we see people from same handful of styles over and over again.

Why would an MMA fight trainer need to focus on specifically Wing Chun (or any single style)? There are variations in striking, but many of the same tactics work against several. They also aren't likely to specifically (that I've seen) focus on how to beat Shotokan Karate, or Goju-ryu Karate, or... or... They focus on how to beat strikes, then how to beat grappling, etc.

The only time they've focused on single arts was either at the beginning (when each was adapting to the new competition format) or when someone came in with surprising results (like Gracie, though arguably what they were preparing for was Gracie, not Gracie BJJ).

 

[Gerry Seymour]

And clearly it is about what, since you're not seeing WC guys entering NHB competitions and doing well. I mean, if all styles are equal, than we should see equal representation of styles. However we don't see that. Instead, we see people from same handful of styles over and over again.

There's another factor that affects who enters competitions like that: who is interested. I've noticed that the atmosphere in some schools and styles is simply not attractive to those who want to hit someone else hard enough to knock them out in a competition. Those styles/schools will likely never be represented significantly in NHB competition, because the practitioners aren't interested.

Take me, for instance. There was a time I could have competed in Judo competitions, and likely would have done okay. I never had enough interest to do so. That absence doesn't mean my techniques wouldn't work there (my experience rolling with Judoka and suggests otherwise).

 

[Spinoza]

There's another factor that affects who enters competitions like that: who is interested. I've noticed that the atmosphere in some schools and styles is simply not attractive to those who want to hit someone else hard enough to knock them out in a competition. Those styles/schools will likely never be represented significantly in NHB competition, because the practitioners aren't interested.

Take me, for instance. There was a time I could have competed in Judo competitions, and likely would have done okay. I never had enough interest to do so. That absence doesn't mean my techniques wouldn't work there (my experience rolling with Judoka and suggests otherwise).

Exactly. And should we really be surprised to see that some of the most popular arts being practiced in early MMA fights were arts that were already geared towards competition fighting--Judo, BJJ, Muay Thai, boxing, wrestling, etc.? It seems like it would have been easy to predict that a new competitive fighting format would attract people who already had an interest in competitive fighting.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Actually in terms of meaning of the wording "Self defense" it does not matter. The wording simply states defending yourself and can be done on many levels.

Situations may be different but noone can argue that a cop never has to defend himself. As if he was never to be threatened?

Same thing applies to a hospital worker, just different situation, different scenario and different solutions. All use self defense, all use it differently.

Even two people with same job, same country of origin, same language, same everything. Being attacked by same guy, will utilize different solutions in terms of self defense. It is all individual if you simply add enough details to look at. No scenario is identical to another.

I agree with this. Everyone has a different situation. My primary instructor was a pharmacist. Interestingly, that occupation put him in danger more than once from folks trying to steal drugs. Does the fact that he chose that occupation mean it's not a self-defense situation? Of course not.

The same applies with cops. Yes, they have some situations that do not apply to civilian self-defense. Yes, they chose an occupation that requires they walk into dangerous situations (violating a basic tenet of self-defense), but many of the situations they find themselves in are highly applicable to civilian training once the violence/attack starts. That's the part we (as instructors) should learn from. That's the feedback I ask for from officers I've trained with or taught.

So, if we are talking about the concept and process of self-defense (which includes avoidance of situations), then there's little we can use from police situations. When we talk about tactics and technique for physical defense against an imminent attack, there's much we can use.

 

[Hanzou]

Why would an MMA fight trainer need to focus on specifically Wing Chun (or any single style)? There are variations in striking, but many of the same tactics work against several. They also aren't likely to specifically (that I've seen) focus on how to beat Shotokan Karate, or Goju-ryu Karate, or... or... They focus on how to beat strikes, then how to beat grappling, etc.

Unless I'm mistaken WC striking is pretty distinct from MMA striking which is largely based on kickboxing. So if Wing Chun made an impact on MMA, people would have to adapt to the change. Just like MMA is currently adjusting to boxing, Judo, and leg locked-based Bjj.

The only time they've focused on single arts was either at the beginning (when each was adapting to the new competition format) or when someone came in with surprising results (like Gracie, though arguably what they were preparing for was Gracie, not Gracie BJJ).

Actually Bjj is one of the few remaining solo MMA styles that are focused on. Many fighters actively pursue rank in the style after establishing a striking base.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Unless I'm mistaken WC striking is pretty distinct from MMA striking which is largely based on kickboxing. So if Wing Chun made an impact on MMA, people would have to adapt to the change. Just like MMA is currently adjusting to boxing, Judo, and leg locked-based Bjj.

My point wasn't to compare "MMA striking" to WC, but to comment that MMA fighters have been preparing against strikes for a long time. If their initial work helped them against WC movements, as well as others, there would be no need to specifically target WC. You only target something where it exposes a weakness, and perhaps they collectively covered that area as they prepared for the multitude of other striking arts and their varied approaches.

Actually Bjj is one of the few remaining solo MMA styles that are focused on. Many fighters actively pursue rank in the style after establishing a striking base.

This is the other side of the coin. Now you're talking about what they use, rather than what they defend against. BJJ does seem to be the best adaptation to MMA needs for someone who has their strikes down. I don't know enough of those needs to say why, except to suppose that the way BBJ'rs roll must adapt more cleanly than (for instance) how Judo players compete.

Oh, and I still rankle at the term "MMA style". I know the training is starting to converge toward a commonality that could be called a style, but BJJ is not an MMA style. It's a style that is used in MMA competition. Nit-picking, I know, and so probably not worth responding to.

 

[drop bear]

Exactly. And should we really be surprised to see that some of the most popular arts being practiced in early MMA fights were arts that were already geared towards competition fighting--Judo, BJJ, Muay Thai, boxing, wrestling, etc.? It seems like it would have been easy to predict that a new competitive fighting format would attract people who already had an interest in competitive fighting.

They also tend to be practically better martial artists. Gpseymor goes and judo's against a champion. He is going to be thrown around the room.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

They also tend to be practically better martial artists. Gpseymor goes and judo's against a champion. He is going to be thrown around the room.

Yes. This is something I've already said. They train a hell of a lot more than I do, so they had better be better than me. If not, they are wasting their energy.

 

[drop bear]

This is the other side of the coin. Now you're talking about what they use, rather than what they defend against. BJJ does seem to be the best adaptation to MMA needs for someone who has their strikes down. I don't know enough of those needs to say why, except to suppose that the way BBJ'rs roll must adapt more cleanly than (for instance) how Judo players compete.

Oh, and I still rankle at the term "MMA style". I know the training is starting to converge toward a commonality that could be called a style, but BJJ is not an MMA style. It's a style that is used in MMA competition. Nit-picking, I know, and so probably not worth responding to.

Correct. Bjj is more accurately a mma drill.



He. He.

 

[Spinoza]

They also tend to be practically better martial artists. Gpseymor goes and judo's against a champion. He is going to be thrown around the room.

Yes, they tend to practically train for competition fighting so they tend to practically fair better in competition fighting. Their training and their interests are both a factor.

 

[Spinoza]

They also tend to be practically better martial artists. Gpseymor goes and judo's against a champion. He is going to be thrown around the room.

Yes, they tend to practically train for competition fighting so they tend to practically fair better in competition fighting. Their training and their interests are both a factor.

 

[drop bear]

Yes, they tend to practically train for competition fighting so they tend to practically fair better in competition fighting. Their training and their interests are both a factor.

That same judo champion will do gpseymor on the street. Sorry but concrete shoes and gp trying to steal the guys wallet is not going to change the situation enough.

 

[Spinoza]

That same judo champion will do gpseymor on the street. Sorry but concrete shoes and gp trying to steal the guys wallet is not going to change the situation enough.

I'm really confused. I'm not sure what that is supposed to be in relation to.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

That same judo champion will do gpseymor on the street. Sorry but concrete shoes and gp trying to steal the guys wallet is not going to change the situation enough.

If he's a champion at a high level, yes. Because he's training a lot more. It's not the competition factor, nor the style. It's the amount of training in this case. Give me someone with a similar experience/training level/physical condition in Judo, and I probably have an edge on the street. Of course, if he has 30+ years of training and experience in multiple arts (to match mine), then my edge will be slight. There is a point of diminishing return.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I'm really confused. I'm not sure what that is supposed to be in relation to.

Apparently, now the issue is whether I can successfully mug a Judoka.

 

[drop bear]

If he's a champion at a high level, yes. Because he's training a lot more. It's not the competition factor, nor the style. It's the amount of training in this case. Give me someone with a similar experience/training level/physical condition in Judo, and I probably have an edge on the street. Of course, if he has 30+ years of training and experience in multiple arts (to match mine), then my edge will be slight. There is a point of diminishing return.

If he is a fundimentaly better martial artist. The circumstances make less difference.

 

[drop bear]

I'm really confused. I'm not sure what that is supposed to be in relation to.

You are suggesting that a persons fighting ability ends as soon as they leave the gym. That judo for competition does not effect judo for the street.

 

[Spinoza]

You are suggesting that a persons fighting ability ends as soon as they leave the gym. That judo for competition does not effect judo for the street.

I don't recall saying anything like that at all. If I did, I apologize, because it is incorrect.