Wing Chun vs MMA

[LFJ]

Doesn't really make sense to me, but I have no way of knowing what they showed. I think as LFJ said probably a seminar type application. Doesn't sound representative of WSL VT.

This video shows it. They call these round punches, but they are more like retard punches. That's the only reason it's working for them.

Quality WSLVT does not walk into round punches like this! The reason they do this is because they lack mobility ideas and believe in charging forwards at all costs.

They also use the last actions at the end of CK for blocking kicks with their hands. All crazy application-based ideas.

 

[dudewingchun]

Okay Okay. I agree with alot of what you both just replied. And disagree with some.

I need to be able to edit later because its always a while after I post and mull over something in the back of my head while training or whatever that my thoughts are " updated".

I think I must of gotten the article mixed up. That was not the one that talked about dummy at all. Now I dont know where to find it. Im pretty sure I didnt make it up. But who cares. I was just giving some counterbalance to the WSL is the only person who knows wing chun. Seeing your counter points to my counter points I see where you guys are coming from logically.

I thought david peterson was a personal student of WSL howcome he seems to have " wrong" stuff?

In the end who cares. You guys do your wing chun and we do our wing chun. This is just a forum.

 

[guy b.]

I think I must of gotten the article mixed up. That was not the one that talked about dummy at all. Now I dont know where to find it. Im pretty sure I didnt make it up. But who cares. I was just giving some counterbalance to the WSL is the only person who knows wing chun. Seeing your counter points to my counter points I see where you guys are coming from logically.

I care! Nobody is saying WSL is the only person that learned wing chun from YM. All we are doing is talking from personal and group experience. If CSL wing chun works for you then stick with it. I think it is a good approach and the emphasis on fighting in comps keeps it very real.

I thought david peterson was a personal student of WSL howcome he seems to have " wrong" stuff?

I don't know DP personally and so can't comment. I have been to a couple of his seminars in UK. He showed typical seminar stuff. Even that was enough to blow some people out of the water back in 2000's UK, lol. We were starting from a pretty low level here

In the end who cares. You guys do your wing chun and we do our wing chun. This is just a forum.

By sharing info we learn and improve. I would still love to hear your thoughts on CSL power generation methods. I met a CSL guy called Neil Broadbent a few years ago and he certainly impressed with his power. It is my understanding that CSL trains body movement for power generation consciously and explicitly, while WSL VT trains it implicitly in certain drills and equipment, poon sau and pole being the most important. Would you like to comment on that?

 

[dudewingchun]

I care! Nobody is saying WSL is the only person that learned wing chun from YM. All we are doing is talking from personal and group experience. If CSL wing chun works for you then stick with it. I think it is a good approach and the emphasis on fighting in comps keeps it very real.



I don't know DP personally and so can't comment. I have been to a couple of his seminars in UK. He showed typical seminar stuff. Even that was enough to blow some people out of the water back in 2000's UK, lol. We were starting from a pretty low level here



By sharing info we learn and improve. I would still love to hear your thoughts on CSL power generation methods. I met a CSL guy called Neil Broadbent a few years ago and he certainly impressed with his power. It is my understanding that CSL trains body movement for power generation consciously and explicitly, while WSL VT trains it implicitly in certain drills and equipment, poon sau and pole being the most important. Would you like to comment on that?

It certainly seemed like you guys were saying that. Well good wing chun atleast.

I would like to comment on that. But I only started learning both CST in like march last year and CSL around july/september. So im still a beginner in those ones. But I have made more improvement and seen better results in sparring with them then my whole 9 years at my first school. But obviously the foundation from the first school helped but then didnt at the same time.

Well they seem to use it quite effectively. Not going to comment on that application video.. though that is the one I tried in sparring and never got to work.

 

[KPM]

You see the previous page where people posted videos and described in detail why they agree or disagree with specific things? Yeah? That's how constructive conversation is done. You might try it.

Where is the video of that "Rooster Fighting" you talked about so that we can all see how closely it resembles Wing Chun?

 

[guy b.]

This video shows it. They call these round punches, but they are more like retard punches. That's the only reason it's working for them.

Quality WSLVT does not walk into round punches like this! The reason they do this is because they lack mobility ideas and believe in charging forwards at all costs.

They also use the last actions at the end of CK for blocking kicks with their hands. All crazy application-based ideas.

A tight lead hook would cause them real problems. Nobody steps in and throws a telegraphed slow, low and wide hook like that in reality. They have matched the hook to the way they want to stop it. More seriously, if you chase hands in that way you are always reacting which allows opponent to impose upon you. This sort of trained response is a gift to combination punchers.

 

[KPM]

Those were mainstream sort of ideas shown at public seminars. WSL always said "just for show" or "maybe YOU can do it", lol.


.

So WSL taught a substandard inaccurate version of Wing Chun at public seminars? You mean he cheated seminar attendees who thought they were learning "real" Wing Chun? He cheated David Petersen, who spent lots of time and money traveling to HK to train with WSL and hosting him for seminars in Australia?

Or........could it be that WSL taught the use of Tan Sau as a defensive move....just like everyone else, and as shown in the pictures I posted.....and at a more advanced level taught the idea of using it to train the elbow? You wouldn't always get into the more "in-depth" things at seminars, depending on the level of the people attending. And....this would mean that those people in WSLVT lineage today that try to say that using Tan Sau as a defensive move is wrong and look down on other lineages are really not teaching what WSL himself taught, but have simply taken an idea to the extreme and made things a bit "one-dimensional" compared to what WSL himself probably did. Could it be that some of WSL's students have taken that idea that Tan Sau trains the elbow, and run with it....to the exclusion of other things, which WSL himself may have never really intended?

Just a thought......

 

[LFJ]

Where is the video of that "Rooster Fighting" you talked about so that we can all see how closely it resembles Wing Chun?

It doesn't closely resemble Wing Chun and neither does White Crane. That's the point. Similar hand shapes and arm motions don't mean anything at all, other than that we're all humans.

You said it has to be taken into consideration together with other pieces of evidence for a connection, but each one you presented has been shot down. So it doesn't matter and I haven't bothered looking for a video for you.

So WSL taught a substandard inaccurate version of Wing Chun at public seminars? You mean he cheated seminar attendees who thought they were learning "real" Wing Chun? He cheated David Petersen, who spent lots of time and money traveling to HK to train with WSL and hosting him for seminars in Australia?

Or........could it be that WSL taught the use of Tan Sau as a defensive move....just like everyone else, and as shown in the pictures I posted.....and at a more advanced level taught the idea of using it to train the elbow? You wouldn't always get into the more "in-depth" things at seminars, depending on the level of the people attending. And....this would mean that those people in WSLVT lineage today that try to say that using Tan Sau as a defensive move is wrong and look down on other lineages are really not teaching what WSL himself taught, but have simply taken an idea to the extreme and made things a bit "one-dimensional" compared to what WSL himself probably did. Could it be that some of WSL's students have taken that idea that Tan Sau trains the elbow, and run with it....to the exclusion of other things, which WSL himself may have never really intended?

Just a thought......

WSL taught people of various lineage backgrounds at public seminars. He often demoed basic ideas taught in mainstream Wing Chun, often what those who invited him out were teaching so as not to cause embarrassment or offense.

His method takes careful guidance through a systematic development of the idea, and is not just applications. But applications are easy illustrations, satisfy quickly, and can be taken home by people. He always said "just for show" or "maybe YOU can do it".

DP learned this material and filled in gaps with previous experience and looking at what others in Wing Chun do when he went home. I've seen him quote LT to justify the way he does certain parts of the forms. That's something no one who understood WSL's method would ever do. There are droves of ex-LTWT guys who wouldn't return to their old ways even if forced at gunpoint.

DP is just an articulate teacher and has done well to market himself with "my Sifu this, my Sifu that". Pay attention to the way he talks. If not for the namedropping, no one would care what he says. But to his credit, what he teaches is already much better than a lot of stuff that's out there. It's just not WSL's full system. It's all application-based.

 

[guy b.]

this would mean that those people in WSLVT lineage today that try to say that using Tan Sau as a defensive move is wrong and look down on other lineages are really not teaching what WSL himself taught

I have seen some wing chun that didn't work. I don't think you were personally involved. Please get over it.

 

[KPM]

It doesn't closely resemble Wing Chun and neither does White Crane. That's the point. Similar hand shapes and arm motions don't mean anything at all, other than that we're all humans.

You said it has to be taken into consideration together with other pieces of evidence for a connection, but each one you presented has been shot down. So it doesn't matter and I haven't bothered looking for a video for you.


.

Once again, I will point out that you didn't shoot anything down! I listed the things that suggest a connection between Wing Chun and White Crane. I never said they were proof, only suggestive. You can choose to believe whether that it is enough to theorize an actual historical connection between Wing Chun and White Crane or not. But you cannot deny that these things exist that suggest a connection.

Now. One of ways you seemed to think you "shot down" one of these suggested connections was to say that "Rooster Fighting" had all of the elements I attributed to White Crane, implying that it would look just as much like Wing Chun as the White Crane I showed in the video. So naturally, if you want anyone to believe this is the case....you need to produce a similar video so people can judge whether or not this "Rooster Fighting" does indeed look just as much like Wing Chun as does the White Crane video I supplied. That is how "constructive conversation" is done!

 

[KPM]

DP is just an articulate teacher and has done well to market himself with "my Sifu this, my Sifu that". Pay attention to the way he talks. If not for the namedropping, no one would care what he says. .

That must by why he was invited to deliver the eulogy at WSL's funeral!

 

[LFJ]

I listed the things that suggest a connection between Wing Chun and White Crane. I never said they were proof, only suggestive.

Not proof, but "evidence" is what you said.

You can choose to believe whether that it is enough to theorize an actual historical connection between Wing Chun and White Crane or not. But you cannot deny that these things exist that suggest a connection.

I can and I did. They don't.

Now. One of ways you seemed to think you "shot down" one of these suggested connections was to say that "Rooster Fighting" had all of the elements I attributed to White Crane, implying that it would look just as much like Wing Chun as the White Crane I showed in the video.

But White Crane doesn't look like Wing Chun. You can find videos of Western Boxers doing actions like bong-sau, paak-sau, laan-sau, biu-sau. But Western Boxing still doesn't look like Wing Chun, doesn't work like Wing Chun, and isn't related to Wing Chun. What does that suggest to you?

 

[guy b.]

Once again, I will point out that you didn't shoot anything down! I listed the things that suggest a connection between Wing Chun and White Crane. I never said they were proof, only suggestive. You can choose to believe whether that it is enough to theorize an actual historical connection between Wing Chun and White Crane or not. But you cannot deny that these things exist that suggest a connection.

But they don't suggest a connection, precisely because the way they work differs in such a fundamental way.

There is quite a lot of interesting work on the parallels between Goju Ryu karate and white crane. This is fruitful because they work in similar ways providing evidence of a connection. Goju Ryu and White crane in a fight looks similar. Wing chun and White Crane in a fight do not look similar at all. In fact there are ways in which they are fundamentally at odds with each other.

Simply pointing at arm shapes and saying "see they look the same" is trivial. Once this has been pointed out to you, continuing to do it looks a bit odd. Like your brain is not working properly. You need to move the argument on if you want to continue with it.

 

[KPM]

Not proof, but "evidence" is what you said.

I said it was evidence of suggested connections. Look, this started when Zeny asked why anyone would theorize that Wing Chun and White Crane are connected. I simply summarized why people may think this. I didn't make it up. I'm not the only one that sees these possible connections. You can come after me all you want. It won't make it go away. Because these are the things that others have seen that make them think that an historical connection between White Crane and Wing Chun is possible. Its as simple as that!

I am not the only that sees Lee Kong's White Crane and thinks it bears some similarities to Wing Chun that are more than mere coincidence. You said this "Rooster Fighting" has the same similarities in an attempt to discount what others see in White Crane. So produce a video that shows that "Rooster Fighting" is indeed as similar to Wing Chun as White Crane and maybe someone will start taking you seriously. Otherwise stop saying you have "shot down" anything. Because you haven't.

And Guy, you can stop it with the whole "it doesn't function the same" routine. We've heard that now upteen times. And I have pointed out that 150 years of divergent evolution and development would certainly be enough time for Wing Chun too develop its own power base and way of doing things differently from any possible White Crane root art. You just keep repeating the same thing despite that.

 

[LFJ]

I'm not the only one that sees these possible connections.

Like HS Beetlejuice who tampers with things to fit the facts to his theory? Good company you've got.

You said this "Rooster Fighting" has the same similarities in an attempt to discount what others see in White Crane. So produce a video that shows that "Rooster Fighting" is indeed as similar to Wing Chun as White Crane and maybe someone will start taking you seriously.

Honestly, I just had a quick look but can't find a video. It's from a rural village in the mountains of Henan. A lot of stuff there hasn't been filmed. But regardless, many Wing Chun "hands" can be found in various Northern styles. I'm sure John Wang can recognize some of these just by name.

For example,

Taan-sau = Qiangshou (spear hand),
Fuk-sau = Diaoshou or Goushou (hook hand),
Wu-sau = Tuizhang (pushing palm),
Gaang-sau = Qiezhang (slicing palm),
Biu-sau = Renshou (threading hand),
Po-paai = Shizi Zhang Kou (lion opens mouth),
Gwai-jaang = Panzhou (coiling elbow, done with the fist on the sternum to create a solid triangle connected to the body similar to the BJ form. Bet you thought that was unique, huh?)
Kwan-sau = Kaoshou (handcuffs, because the arms roll as if tied together, which is what kwan-sau means. Bong-sau is contained within this and an entire system is based on permutations of it.)

That's just off the top of my head. There's surely a lot more. I could go through the VT forms and give each action a Northern style application without changing anything. So, what are you gonna say? All kung fu is related? So your theory is still proven? Wing Chun and White Crane are related!

And Guy, you can stop it with the whole "it doesn't function the same" routine. We've heard that now upteen times. And I have pointed out that 150 years of divergent evolution and development would certainly be enough time for Wing Chun too develop its own power base and way of doing things differently from any possible White Crane root art. You just keep repeating the same thing despite that.

Because you ignore the fact that if it has completely changed in 150 years to the point that no similarity remains, and you can't prove they were ever similar, your point is entirely... pointless.

 

[KPM]

Like HS Beetlejuice who tampers with things to fit the facts to his theory? Good company you've got.

---Nope. You really need to get out more!



Honestly, I just had a quick look but can't find a video. It's from a rural village in the mountains of Henan. A lot of stuff there hasn't been filmed. But regardless, many Wing Chun "hands" can be found in various Northern styles. I'm sure John Wang can recognize some of these just by name.

---I'm growing tired of having to repeat myself. You have to take the total package...the gestalt. Sure you can find similar techniques here and there in ANY martial art. But are they ALL found in one martial art? I guess we can discount "Rooster Fighting" since you don't have a visual for us to prove that all of the same techniques are found within that one style...like they are in White Crane....and Wing Chun.


Because you ignore the fact that if it has completely changed in 150 years to the point that no similarity remains, and you can't prove they were ever similar, your point is entirely... pointless.

---Again, here I go repeating myself again because some people can't seem to follow a discussion. You have to take a gestalt...the total package. That includes visual similarities as well as biomechanical similarities. The videos show visual similarities. The footwork is even similar. If there are notable biomechanical differences, they could have occurred with time.....150 years of time. But the visual similarities can remain and still suggest a connection. Likewise, if there was an art that showed showed very similar biomechanics and power generation but different techniques, one could also posit a possible connection. But I don't know of one. And if there was one, then we would have to look and see if it shared as similar a legendary history and other connections like White Crane and Wing Chun. Total package. Get it?

---And let me repeat one more thing, because I sense that you guys have been missing it. WSLVT is not the standard by which ALL Wing Chun is judged. Maybe White Crane doesn't look much like WSLVT. But it bears a lot of similarities to the mainland styles of Wing Chun.

---So you guys can go on repeating yourselves all you want. If you come up with anything new, then maybe we can discuss it.

 

[geezer]

Agreed, but I would add that a good gaun sau hurts like a son of a b!tch

It certainly does, but a good gaun sau is not chasing hands. It never crosses the vertical mid-line. Basically it can be seen as a simultaneous attack and defense ("attacking arm is defending arm") since it defends the lower torso, clears obstructions, and flows seamlessly into a lower level punch.

Also, if somebody fakes low and pulls their arm out of the way, the gaun sau just continues forward like a low fak sau. If it hurts the wrist like a bugger, it also hurts plenty when it hits your opponent's lower gut or bladder region ...and if you've ever caught one in the groin... well you get the point!

 

[LFJ]

@KPM So, you're just gonna ignore the whole list of common techniques I posted? Haha! These are all found within Songshan systems, like Hongquan. And in many other single systems from the Songshan area in Henan Province.

It's obviously Northern, so the body methods are different, footwork is exaggerated, and its forms don't look like Wing Chun forms at all, but all the hands are there with similar or exact functions, which is just as much if not more than in White Crane.

It's difficult to see without having it broken down slowly and the details taught to you though. It's something more easily shown in person. But every last hand is in there. I'll get you some pictures.

Ask John Wang (@Kung Fu Wang) if he recognizes those techniques from his Northern style experience. I'm sure he can name equivalents in his styles too.

 

[geezer]

One more thing about that DP WSL-VT clip showing students stepping in with a fook-da-sau to deal with a round punch. That can really work if you apply it offensively and pre-emptively rather than as a defensive response to a punch that is already on it's way.

In other words, if you find yourself attacking on the inside, up the center (not my favorite place!), you need to control your opponent's opposite hand. If you are attentive to his body dynamics, you can pre-empt a round-punch this way before it becomes a threat. Since you have already committed yourself up the center and in close, it my be your best bet.

 

[geezer]

---And let me repeat one more thing, because I sense that you guys have been missing it. WSLVT is not the standard by which ALL Wing Chun is judged. Maybe White Crane doesn't look much like WSLVT. But it bears a lot of similarities to the mainland styles of Wing Chun.

---So you guys can go on repeating yourselves all you want.

Seems like a lot of repetition going on here all around. Which just goes to prove that, contrary to what some folks believe, repetition alone does not promote learning!

@KPM -- I never use the ignore feature on this forum. I like to be able to read a thread and grasp both sides of a discussion rather than feel like I'm listening in on a cell phone conversation and only hearing half of what's being said.

Instead, I've learned to read and then willfully ignore certain individuals with whom I simply can't seem to communicate, no matter how hard I try. It has made me a happier person, and I'd like to recommend it to you and anyone else on this forum who feels that certain other parties "just don't get it". Take Joy, for example, he has got this technique mastered. Basically he seems to always keep in mind that this is just a forum, and what people say here is, frankly, unimportant.