Has anyone had to use Wing-Chun for self-defense ?

[Mider]

Mider,

I am not sure other than, Francis Fong, what makes the people in the video good instructors.( I first met Francis 40 years ago. I know his journey and why he is good). Chi sau is a collaborative training exercise. Good Chi Sai does not equal good fighting skill.

Demo's are just that. Demo partners do not hit back,they do not move . They stand still while you can look good. This does not equal fighting skill. They may have great fighting skills but a demo is just that . It does not show real skill and does not show if a teacher is really good what ever that means to you.

Here’s an example of what makes them good teachers…knowledge of structure, stance, etc

 

[Callen]

While I agree something is likely lost in translation, I think it’s unlikely using the original terms is better (likely it’s actually worse), when the people using those terms aren’t fluent in the language. At best, they are using an approximation of the sounds, and mentally translating the meaning (also approximately). It’s my experience that using the terms without knowing the language can lead to linguistic leaps of logic.

All good points. That's why I said as long as the terminology is correct, then the system is at much less risk of degradation.

 

[Callen]

Like you said, bilingual people tend to be the best.

The best Wing Chun available today is codified in Cantonese. That doesn't mean it can't be taught in English as long as the teacher understands the source.

Yep, I agree. I have been lucky enough to learn from native Canto speakers, most of which are bilingual.

I was more asking about what you meant by, "a strong understanding of a blend of several different Shaolin animal styles"; but you cleared it up in your response to Geezer in terms of good, better, best.

 

[Oily Dragon]

Many long fist guys also cross train the praying mantis system. IMO, it's good idea to look at a technique from both the long fist point of view and also from the praying mantis point of view.

That's a good point. Should we look at a MA tool (such as Bong Shou) just from the WC point of view, or should we look at it from the general MA point of view?

I always think that Bong Shou is more than just a block. In both the long fist and the Gong Li system, Bong Shou is used as a "spiral punch" (at 0.49).

Definitely, and this video is a great example of why this is such an old and true technique. "Terrible" Tim agreed.

In the battle between "WC doesn't work", "WC can work", and "WC does work", all you have to do is examine Lam family Hung Ga Kuen to see that Bong Sau and "Pretty Maiden looks in the Mirror" are connected to Wing Chun.

And this is first year student stuff. Tan Sao, Bong Sao. This is kind of where I see Wing Chun, missing out on a lot of this exposition in the name of an "Efficiency" that just isn't there today. Maybe once, long ago.

Meanwhile, Shuai Jiao and San Shou don't have this problem, like you said.

(remember, read this right to left).

 

[Oily Dragon]

My point is that “knowing” the terminology isn’t the same as understanding the terms in Cantonese. If they don’t speak the language, they know the term via translation, and that means the original term can’t carry the meaning it did.

That's why a good translator is most important.

You don't need to know Cantonese (or Mandarin) to learn the codes of kung fu. But you do need someone to read them out to you, unless you gain the skill of translation. I have that, which is why I can understand this art on the deepest levels.

Especially on the food level.

 

[Oily Dragon]

This was my old sifu's assertion. Beyond that, he held that even Cantonese was often inadequate to convey the proper use and feel of a technique. That is why Wing Chun is passed down through the hands. Not through books, posters, videos or even the ancient kuen kuit.

Of course, of course, all the above can be helpful in a supplementary way ... but they are not sufficient by themselves. This is why he (and most other old-school Chinese instructors) always tagged the forms and sequences featured in his books, videos, and posters with a few deliberate errors as "tells" to expose those who had not learned from a legitimate source.

As a educator by profession, that is something I found ethically troubling. But it was the custom.

Well all southern kung fu terms are technically slang, and full of hidden messages.

The whole anti-Ching/restore the Ming resistance made those up, usually after they learned to kill people.

 

[Oily Dragon]

Sifu Dominick Izzo does fight break downs and can tell techniques just by looking…yet you can’t seem To. It’s just interesting to me

He's a terrible exemplar of Wing Chun. He is one of those "how to defeat Boxing with Wing Chun" Youtubers.

He's like the Guy Fierri of Wing Chun.

 

[Oily Dragon]

Yep, I agree. I have been lucky enough to learn from native Canto speakers, most of which are bilingual.

I was more asking about what you meant by, "a strong understanding of a blend of several different Shaolin animal styles"; but you cleared it up in your response to Geezer in terms of good, better, best.

It's always such a relative conversation, right? My master is better than yours, etc.

But if you've never been yelled at in Cantonese, you haven't learned southern Shaolin Chinese kung fu, imho.

And if you've then had the yelling explained in English, well, you won the CMA lottery.

 

[drop bear]

He's a terrible exemplar of Wing Chun. He is one of those "how to defeat Boxing with Wing Chun" Youtubers.

He's like the Guy Fierri of Wing Chun.

View attachment 30545

Only good for maiming and killing?

People really don't understand how cringe that sort of thing sounds.

 

[Mider]

He's a terrible exemplar of Wing Chun. He is one of those "how to defeat Boxing with Wing Chun" Youtubers.

He's like the Guy Fierri of Wing Chun.

View attachment 30545

To be fair, you’ve done nothing but trash WC in this thread. Your points are often flippant. You can’t even do a simple Google search as to who anyone I’ve posted is

you're attitude is, who are these people, my attitude is, why do they train WC, what do they see in it.

maybe you have an alternate motivation, many online do. I’m not trying to be rude, I’m just responding to your posts and I’ve been way more polite then you and many here claim to be.

also why wouldn’t you use wing Chun against a boxer? Again why didn’t you just search YouTube of Izzo training with different martial artists?

or even Adam Chan…he was a student of one of Bruce lees students, he explains how wing Chun has evolved.

also how is one the guy Fierri of WC? You literally can search him with boxers, students of Dan Inosanto, other WC guys.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Only good for maiming and killing?

People really don't understand how cringe that sort of thing sounds.

Just curious, why would labels like that bother a stoic? It’s just talk.

 

[Cynik75]

Here’s an example of what makes them good teachers…knowledge of structure, stance, etc

Good teacher is the one whose students perform good in the field he teaches. As I understand those teachers teach a specific way of combat called Wing Chun. Desired result in combat is to win actual one. So good teacher is the one whose students (as I said earlier) win more fights than students of average teacher.
Being strong, fast, skilled person with good stance does not make anybody a good teacher. It makes people good athlets, maybe good fighters but not good teachers.
So once again what is the backup for calling those people good teachers if the teaching results are unknown?

 

[Mider]

Good teacher is the one whose students perform good in the field he teaches. As I understand those teachers teach a specific way of combat called Wing Chun. Desired result in combat is to win actual one. So good teacher is the one whose students (as I said earlier) win more fights than students of average teacher.
Being strong, fast, skilled person with good stance does not make anybody a good teacher. It makes people good athlets, maybe good fighters but not good teachers.
So once again what is the backup for calling those people good teachers if the teaching results are unknown?

i Don’t think that would make them a good teacher in a debate, I’ve heard many so called experts say, well they fought an untrained opponent so they still suck.

how would we know if their results are good? I mean We hsve word of mouth, Izzo used his skills as a cop,a WC teacher named Danny Haligan teaches police I believe

is that good enough evidence? Again, as a martial artist, why isn’t anyone actually looking at the footage and critiquing the structure and skill? I’ve seen boxers and Muay Thai guys do it to others

i honestly wonder why I stay on this forum, it mostly consists of art bashing, endless debate without substance, supposed experts

 

[drop bear]

Just curious, why would labels like that bother a stoic? It’s just talk.

It is a dishonest approach to self reflection.

If you can't fight. Just say you can't fight.

 

[hunschuld]

Are there more than one source for the Kuen Kuit?

Yes, the Kuit I first learned was from Jui Wan and Moy Yat and they are for the most part the same for all other Yip Man students with a few variations. The Kwai family Kuit are both more in number and more expansive.

 

[hunschuld]

theyre good cause they make WC work

Shrug, if they fought what then? You or someone else would just say oh well they didn’t fight anyone’s killed. If you feel they need to prove themselves to touch hands with them, don't debate online

I mean most of the men I posted are well known teachers…how didn’t you know that as you claim to have trainEd so much wing Chun? If you’re so skilled how can’t you tell by their technique? Shrug…

Sifu Dominick Izzo does fight break downs and can tell techniques just by looking…yet you can’t seem To. It’s just interesting to me

I am not saying they are not good. I know some of them personally they are very good and my students know some personnaly. Its not that they personnaly have skills or dont. It is in general Demos and videos are marketing. They do not equal skill. Being well known often means you are an excellant marketer it does not in and of itself grant skill.

As for skills demonstrated. Sure you may feel they are doing cool stuff. They are doing it against willing partners. In combat cool stuff often gets you hurt. To quote Mike Tyson" everyone has a plan until they get hit in the face" True skill is what comes after you get hit in the face.

If you are learning a martial art then you need to learn how to fight with that martial art. Many people demo great wing chun and then they put up sparring videos and they are uusing boxing. Nothing wrong with that just seems like learning wing chun is a big waste of time if when you fight you are going to box.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

It is a dishonest approach to self reflection.

If you can't fight. Just say you can't fight.

The dishonesty of someone else’s self reflection is irrelevant.

 

[Mider]

I am not saying they are not good. I know some of them personally they are very good and my students know some personnaly. Its not that they personnaly have skills or dont. It is in general Demos and videos are marketing. They do not equal skill. Being well known often means you are an excellant marketer it does not in and of itself grant skill.

As for skills demonstrated. Sure you may feel they are doing cool stuff. They are doing it against willing partners. In combat cool stuff often gets you hurt. To quote Mike Tyson" everyone has a plan until they get hit in the face" True skill is what comes after you get hit in the face.

If you are learning a martial art then you need to learn how to fight with that martial art. Many people demo great wing chun and then they put up sparring videos and they are uusing boxing. Nothing wrong with that just seems like learning wing chun is a big waste of time if when you fight you are going to box.

So we are going to debate online and decide if they’re good? I noticed you ignored every question I asked btw

I respect your opinion but after 11 pages of this I’m withdrawing myself from this discussion.

 

[wckf92]

Yes, the Kuit I first learned was from Jui Wan and Moy Yat and they are for the most part the same for all other Yip Man students with a few variations. The Kwai family Kuit are both more in number and more expansive.

Understood. Thank you.
Are these publicly available or are they only for students of those particular lineages? It would be great to get a discussion going in another thread about the Kuen Kuit!

 

[hunschuld]

So we are going to debate online and decide if they’re good? I noticed you ignored every question I asked btw

I respect your opinion but after 11 pages of this I’m withdrawing myself from this discussion.

I was not trying to debate skill just making decisions based on video clips.

To answer your questions in a general way. 2 videos had people that it would be fun to chi sao,swap insights with. 1 would be fun to swap stories with but no reason to cross hands. The rest I would get more out of taking a nap