Any names and examples of effectiveness?There are people who train and teach Wing Chun very effectively already, and have been doing for a long time. Seek out and learn from them.
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Any names and examples of effectiveness?There are people who train and teach Wing Chun very effectively already, and have been doing for a long time. Seek out and learn from them.
Just for the sake of discussion, if you charge in with jab-cross (like WC chain punches). Your opponent also charge in with left-right-hooks. You protect your center from inside out. Your opponents protect his center from outside in.
Who will win?
I generally agree with you, though I think perhaps you've partially misdiagnosed the problem and solution.
I was never interested in gamification and sportification of Wing Chun, though I am very much interested in pressure testing it and making it functional.
I think that Wing Chun mostly suffers from:
#1 Not practicing against realistic, non-Wing Chun attacks
#2 Over specializing and over emphasizing things like Chisao (I personally value Chisao and sensitivity training very highly, and believe you should continue to practice it, but don't confuse it with combat or sparring, etc. And, understand its place, which is to build proper reflexes in a low intensity environment where students can explore the art and process the different sorts of energies and lines of attack that can occur. Treating it as a competitive exercise as many tend to do is not something that I'm sure is all that valuable. I get some inspiration from arts like Lameco and Kali Ilustrisimo where there are "free flowing" drills where one party counters, and the other feeds attacks, but also counters and throws in unexpected attacks/angles, etc. -- such that, the intensity is low enough to allow creativity and learning/exploring, but high enough to constantly offer a challenge, and unexpected angles of attack, etc. And, both parties learn: one practices being proactive, the other reactive/proactive. A lot of Wing Chun practice also tends to focus far too much on being reactive, at the expense of learning how to be proactive, which is absolutely necessary and is really at the heart of Wing Chun's offensive nature.)
#3 Not learning to hit effectively or deal with someone really trying to hit you
#4 In a sparring context, not knowing how to close into a range where Wing Chun is effective (*I personally do not believe that sparring and especially competition are the end all be all yardstick by which one should judge an art, but it is still an important part of training)
There are people who train and teach Wing Chun very effectively already, and have been doing for a long time. Seek out and learn from them. Perhaps what Wing Chun suffers most from is a certain close mindedness and unwillingness to train with other teachers, lineages, and styles, etc.
In the end, realize that competitive fighters are extremely specialized in exactly what is necessary for their competitive environment, and put in a ton of hard work -- much more than most, somewhat more casual TMA schools. It's not what you train, but how you train. No need to modify your Wing Chun so much as modifying how you practice it, I think. So, I do agree with you on the latter bolded part. I do not think that focusing on some competitive environment is necessarily the answer, but teachers probably do need to focus a whole lot more on making the basics more functional under stress, and against other styles -- for both themselves, and their students. We're very good at countering mid-level, centerline punches delivered in our ideal range. That's great. But how do you deal with other lines and other energies, and opponents who don't stick using Wing Chun principals and body mechanics? That takes practice.
Remember also, though, that Wing Chun was sort of in a boom with the Ip Man movies. Now that that's gone, it's back to being more obscure, I think.
When
- you throw a straight punch, if your opponent throws a hook punch, his hook punch can knock down your straight punch.
- your opponent throws a hook punch, if you throw a straight punch, can your straight punch knock down his hook punch?
The hook punch has advantage over the straight punch. IMO, it's easier to protect your center line from outside in than from inside out.
When
- you throw a straight punch, if your opponent throws a hook punch, his hook punch can knock down your straight punch.
- your opponent throws a hook punch, if you throw a straight punch, can your straight punch knock down his hook punch?
The hook punch has advantage over the straight punch. IMO, it's easier to protect your center line from outside in than from inside out.
WCK mostly hits from wherever the hand is, directly to the target,
Of course it depends on what you're trying to do... We also may well already be on the line as in the first form which clearly brings the hand onto the line before the punch.... It's up to the user to decide what makes sense....Exactly. This is a point which is greatly misunderstood...yet is in the forms.
Not sure what you mean by "on the line"...Centerline?Of course it depends on what you're trying to do... We also may well already be on the line as in the first form which clearly brings the hand onto the line before the punch.... It's up to the user to decide what makes sense....
When I see people claiming to do WCK and not on the line at all then I would question the method...
If you close yourbrings the hand onto the line before the punch....
Well, my Sifu (now deceased) was in the Chris Chan lineage in San Francisco. My impression was that at least some of those fellows could definitely hold their own. I don’t think they ever got into MMA bouts so I doubt you will find any of them on video. But whatever. I know my Sifu had to unleash on some fellows here and there. It kept him safe. But hey, it’s not on YouTube so maybe it didn’t really happen…Any names and examples of effectiveness?
Well, my Sifu (now deceased) was in the Chris Chan lineage in San Francisco. My impression was that at least some of those fellows could definitely hold their own. I don’t think they ever got into MMA bouts so I doubt you will find any of them on video. But whatever. I know my Sifu had to unleash on some fellows here and there. It kept him safe. But hey, it’s not on YouTube so maybe it didn’t really happen…
I know at some point he was part of a school full-contact matchup against a Muay Thai school from Thailand. He was the only one of the wing Chun guys who was successful in that match and knocked his opponent out. He was completely disgusted with the experience and told his Sifu, never again. It was just an ego- building exercise and he had felt coerced into taking part.
That is one of the things I really respected about him: he could see through the crap and recognize the dick-measuring competition for what it was.
I think this is a surprisingly accurate assessment of the state of things.I believe I can clear this up. The guy with the biggest dick is my friend Dave.
Although I have never seen the offending article we know this to be true because Dave practices the same martial art as someone whom he has watched on the TV who is a world class fighter.
We also know Dave is a formidable fighter because he spends his time deriding martial arts he doesn't practice on the internet and boasting about his own prowess.
As his friends we are always incredibly impressed by Dave.
Do you have any proof for this?2. That straight always beats a curve.
I think he was actually disagreeing with that Wing Chun cliché about straight lines always beating curves.Do you have any proof for this?
On one hand, I'm genuinely glad to hear that. I'm glad people are still interested in Wing Chun.I find Wing Chun is actually thriving. People are very interested in the less popular lineages like Gu Lo Village. There is interest in methods by Pan Nam and Chu Shong Tin. These lineages are gaining followers as of late.
The original post is about Wing Chun in Decline. My response was that it is growing in popularity, not that people are still interested in it.On one hand, I'm genuinely glad to hear that. I'm glad people are still interested in Wing Chun.
On the other hand, many of the people drawn to the more esoteric and internal branches of the martial arts (including Wing Chun) are not seeking a fighting art. They are looking for something else. A sense of having found something special, secret, even "magical".
Back in the 80s, my old Chinese sifu once told me that there was a reason why Yip Man's kwoon became so well known in Hong Kong in it's day. His students could fight. The system worked. The little-known and secret WC branches stayed "secret" ...not because they had something so special, but because they couldn't stand up to a real test. They didn't want real fighters showing up at their door.
He expressed doubt that that was still the case with a lot of the newer generation in WC. And that was over 30 years ago. Now, we have very few fighters ....and people are still looking for magic.
Check out this video by Nima King of the CST lineage. There's some stuff here I agree with, but also a lot of parlor tricks. Look at the way the guy jumps around when Nima raises his leg at 2:18. That's almost like "Yellow Bamboo".
TBH my old sifu did a few energy tricks himself. After many years with him I asked him why he did that ....when he actually had some good fighters. He told me "Most people don't want to fight. You are selling them dreams."
Yip Man taught Master Chu a more advanced method through complete relaxation and allowing the body parts to move as one, instead of individually. Master John Kaufman explains this very clearly.
Ive seen this as well, but is this really new? I suspect things have been this way for a lot longer than you and I have been walking the earth. Just my suspicion. Some people can fight. Many cannot, or at least not so well as we might have assumed, given the training. Most don’t train appropriately, but that isn’t the fault of the system. It is in how people train.On one hand, I'm genuinely glad to hear that. I'm glad people are still interested in Wing Chun.
On the other hand, many of the people drawn to the more esoteric and internal branches of the martial arts (including Wing Chun) are not seeking a fighting art. They are looking for something else. A sense of having found something special, secret, even "magical".
All of them? Seriously? I think schools get a reputation based on a small number of highly successful folks, but there are a lot more who never make a name for themselves, never reach that level. So are we looking back in time through rose colored glasses? Nostalgic for a past that never was?Back in the 80s, my old Chinese sifu once told me that there was a reason why Yip Man's kwoon became so well known in Hong Kong in it's day. His students could fight.
Every generation looks back to the “good old days” and laments the poor showing of the younger generation. Your Sifu did it. Perhaps you are doing it now?He expressed doubt that that was still the case with a lot of the newer generation in WC. And that was over 30 years ago. Now, we have very few fighters ....and people are still looking for magic.
So your Sifu contributed to the “downfall” of wing Chun, when he actually had some good fighters. He “sold dreams”. You’ve been honest here about some characteristics of your old Sifu. It’s clear that he is a salesman and has his eye on the mighty dollar and wants control/power over things. This is my impression, just from what you have posted here, over time. So you are, in some ways, a product of his cynicism and his example. You can see through it, but on some level it still clouds your outlook.TBH my old sifu did a few energy tricks himself. After many years with him I asked him why he did that ....when he actually had some good fighters. He told me "Most people don't want to fight. You are selling them dreams."
Crane - Thanks for your thoughtful and honest response. Your advice is right on the mark.You’ve been honest here about some characteristics of your old Sifu. It’s clear that he is a salesman and has his eye on the mighty dollar and wants control/power over things. This is my impression, just from what you have posted here, over time. So you are, in some ways, a product of his cynicism and his example. You can see through it, but on some level it still clouds your outlook ...take care of your own training. If you teach, do so to the best of your capabilities and keep the bar high. Don’t worry about what others are doing.