Wing Chun Coaches and Fighters to Watch

[Zeno Bokor]

I think that we're starting to argue about semantics. The way i see it, you can arrange all the martial arts in the world based on how much power/strength/etc you use where stuff like muay thai is on one end of the spectrum and things like tai chi and other internal martial arts are on the other end of the spectrum. Wing chun is more towards the tai chi side. Sure, we use more strength than tai chi but it's still much closer to that than to kick boxing for instance. And to make it clear, i'm talking about the historical usage of the style, i'm sure you'll find wing chun styles that are more strength based, especially in the west but the version taught in asia isn't like that (with exceptions of course).

Also, yes, the closer you are to the internal styles like bagua the longer the road to being able to use the style in actual combat but that doesn't mean that the style isn't good (unless you're looking for a fight), just that it's more about a way of life than a way of fighting. And this i think is the reason why you don't see so many fighters using wing chun in mma fight.

I don't train to fight but i can defend myself (we do live sparring exercises) and i'm sure that i'm not as good a fighter as those that train for that specifically but i'm also sure that what i learn now i'll still be able to use when i'll be in my 60's. There are old warriors and there are bold warriors but there are no old bold warriors; i want to be able to become an old warrior someday.

 

[jobo]

I think that we're starting to argue about semantics. The way i see it, you can arrange all the martial arts in the world based on how much power/strength/etc you use where stuff like muay thai is on one end of the spectrum and things like tai chi and other internal martial arts are on the other end of the spectrum. Wing chun is more towards the tai chi side. Sure, we use more strength than tai chi but it's still much closer to that than to kick boxing for instance. And to make it clear, i'm talking about the historical usage of the style, i'm sure you'll find wing chun styles that are more strength based, especially in the west but the version taught in asia isn't like that (with exceptions of course).

Also, yes, the closer you are to the internal styles like bagua the longer the road to being able to use the style in actual combat but that doesn't mean that the style isn't good (unless you're looking for a fight), just that it's more about a way of life than a way of fighting. And this i think is the reason why you don't see so many fighters using wing chun in mma fight.

I don't train to fight but i can defend myself (we do live sparring exercises) and i'm sure that i'm not as good a fighter as those that train for that specifically but i'm also sure that what i learn now i'll still be able to use when i'll be in my 60's. There are old warriors and there are bold warriors but there are no old bold warriors; i want to be able to become an old warrior someday.

your just repeating the same incorrect conclusion as before with no attempt to provide justification for your statements.
techniques can over come a size strength deficiete, that really the essence of martial training. but there are no techniques that can over come a serious size strength deficiete or perhaps very very few people who have the ability to use the techniques effectively to overcome that deficiete.

and again, an ability to defend yourself effectively is an ability to fight and vice versa, you can't have one without the other, if your using internal or external styles doesn't change that.

and i can see no time frame in that tai chi will ever become an effective combat art and this thread is about how do you change WC so it does become an effective combat art, your seemed claim that it already is flies in the face of logic, that not to say it doesn't have benefits, just that turning you into a highly efficient fighter isn't one of them.

nb i am in my 60 and i see no issue with using power techniques, strength is one of the last physical attributes to desert you with age

 

[Zeno Bokor]

but there are no techniques that can over come a serious size strength deficiete or perhaps very very few people who have the ability to use the techniques effectively to overcome that deficiete.

I don't know how you do your tan sao but one of the ways that i test if it's good is by hitting full blast directly to the centerline while the other guy is standing on one leg (and not moving). A properly executed tan sao deflects the opponents power without needing any power or grounding from the practitioner. Same with bong sao. You shouldn't feel the power of the opponents strike when defending using tan sao (as long as the strike is directly to the center line), if you are then you're doing something wrong. (do i have to say that if the opponent doesn't hit like a wing chun practitioner then just move away?)

and i can see no time frame in that tai chi will ever become an effective combat art and this thread is about how do you change WC so it does become an effective combat art, your seemed claim that it already is flies in the face of logic, that not to say it doesn't have benefits, just that turning you into a highly efficient fighter isn't one of them.

Tai chi requires a lot of years to become effective and there are very few teachers in the west that can teach the combat part of it. It's actually a very brutal martial art when done correctly, it's just that what you see everywhere is more qigong than anything else. I'm sure you don't have any reason to believe this, but i've seen a few tai chi practitioners when i was in the Taipei peace park and you could clearly see the martial part of the martial art in their movement.
Also, you seem to have gotten my point backwards, i said that wing chun is closer to tai chi than to muay thai as a reason why you don't see many fighters use it, because it's not as effective as a fighting style. Basically the more complex the martial art, the harder it will be to use in a cage fight (i'm talking about striking arts), the better it will be in the long run as a lifestyle choice.

 

[Cynik75]

Zene: just go to nearest MMA, boxing, sambo etc full contact sport club and ask for hard sparring. Or if you do not like sport rules ("there is no rules on the streets") just go to football (european football, not american) fans and tell them that team they are supporting is piece of ****. Nothing can replace personal experience.

 

[Punchy]

BRUTE, strength is just a pejorative term for people who are stronger than you. strength is just strength, you either have a lot of it or you don't, there's no brute about it.

Exactly. We're not trying to pit our strength against his strength. If martial arts are simply about the person who's bigger and stronger then why are we wasting our time learning how to punch and kick?

The would-be street attacker is not looking for someone bigger and stronger than him as his victim. He is looking for someone smaller and who he perceives weaker than him.

Most of us don't have the time the inclination or even the DNA to become big and powerfull, martial arts gives the normal everyday person an edge that we otherwise wouldn't have.

 

[jobo]

Exactly. We're not trying to pit our strength against his strength. If martial arts are simply about the person who's bigger and stronger then why are we wasting our time learning how to punch and kick?

The would-be street attacker is not looking for someone bigger and stronger than him as his victim. He is looking for someone smaller and who he perceives weaker than him.

Most of us don't have the time the inclination or even the DNA to become big and powerfull, martial arts gives the normal everyday person an edge that we otherwise wouldn't have.

for possibly the same reason that people who are big and strong learn to kick and punch,
SO why not be stronger and learn martial arts, then you really have edge ?

it's far from time consuming, say 20 minutes a week , in five mins a day intervals 4 times a week to make significant strength gains over a few months. IF your spending upwards of two hours a week learning ma, in case your attacked it seem false economy of time not to throw in another 20 minutes on physical conditioning.

you can more or less do it in commercial breaks, i do a lot of mine in one minute intervals whilst im waiting for the kettle to boil

 

[Cynik75]

.... If martial arts are simply about the person who's bigger and stronger then why are we wasting our time learning how to punch and kick? ....

Everybody can punch and kick (what means generate some power/energy with muscles and transmit it to opponent body to break it - more power/energy your muscle can generate more you can break). Martial arts are about using muscles in more effective way (better muscle's coordination and cooperation, what results in generating more power) in right time in right tactical situation. And about a few other things, but strenght is one of the most important factors in a fight (strong muscles genarate more power).

 

[Punchy]

That's not my point.
I strength train and encourage my students to do likewise.

But not so you can outmuscle your opponent.

 

[jobo]

That's not my point.
I strength train and encourage my students to do likewise.

But not so you can outmuscle your opponent.

so what is your point, you said above you don't have the time or inclination to train strength, now your saying you do.

but yes there is no need to out muscle your opponent unless your opponent is out muscling you, then your in trouble.

I know from hard experience that most techniques are border line useless if your up against, in your words, someone younger bigger, stronger and faster than you.

if you don't also know that its because you haven't tested them against someone who is younger bigger faster and stronger than you, who also has ill intent. you may be able to catch them by surprise and run,

 

[Cynik75]

...But not so you can outmuscle your opponent.

Why not? If it is the easiest way to win the fight then outmuscle him. It the street, yes? No rules, yes? Use everything you can to win the fight. If you are stronger than opponent just use the strenght. Paradoxically it's often more difficult to outmuscle somebody in sport fight because of weight categories than in "no rules street fight" and martial arts sportmen have to rely more often on the skills than "streetfighters".
Mind, skillset, speed, strenght, stamina - all those factors can decide on victory and good martial arts school develop all of them. Many WC challenge fight videos shows WC adepts as skinny and weak comparing to their opponents, so they even cannot compensate the lack of fightig ability with pure strenght. Good example of value of strenght are Bob Sapp early fights (when he wanted to fight really) especially the Sapp-Minotauro and Sapp-Hoost or Sapp-Abidi fights.

 

[Punchy]

so what is your point, you said above you don't have the time or inclination to train strength, now your saying you do.

but yes there is no need to out muscle your opponent unless your opponent is out muscling you, then your in trouble.

I know from hard experience that most techniques are border line useless if your up against, in your words, someone younger bigger, stronger and faster than you.

if you don't also know that its because you haven't tested them against someone who is younger bigger faster and stronger than you, who also has ill intent. you may be able to catch them by surprise and run,

I didn't say I don't have time.