Wing Chun grappling

[geezer]

I agree with the first part on it's own. And maybe it was just an oversight or I misread you, but there is a significant difference between solo form drilling and application drilling. If you only do form drilling, yes the mechanics and positions are ingrained in the body, but they won't come out instinctively/'body reacts' unless extensively against outside stimulus via partner drilling.

Yep. You can try to imagine an opponent's force when you do a form, but it is all just in your head, and your muscles can't respond the way they will to actual physical pressure, unpredictable timing, changing angles, and so forth. That's why drilling, and especially, chi-sau is so important in WC training. Most other systems have some form of training to address this, such as push hands in taijiquan, kakie in Goju, and hubud in FMA, etc.

 

[Lameman]

Just some notes out of streetfighting. If the attack is waist or below, boot to the face. Higher then the waist, flow with the attack, grab them by the shoulders, fall back, tuck your knees kick 'em in the stomach. Against the standing grapple? Do you usually just let your opponant just do whatever they want? Control the arms, then strike. What are they going to do, fall on you? Grapple with their teeth? Aside from the anti-tackle falling down, I've seen all of the rest of this in wing chun you tube videos. If a wing chun guy, can't boot a guy in the face, ehh, I guess I understand. But if he can't control the arms... he's just plain screwing around.

 

[Punchy]

Just some notes out of streetfighting. If the attack is waist or below, boot to the face. Higher then the waist, flow with the attack, grab them by the shoulders, fall back, tuck your knees kick 'em in the stomach. Against the standing grapple? Do you usually just let your opponant just do whatever they want? Control the arms, then strike. What are they going to do, fall on you? Grapple with their teeth? Aside from the anti-tackle falling down, I've seen all of the rest of this in wing chun you tube videos. If a wing chun guy, can't boot a guy in the face, ehh, I guess I understand. But if he can't control the arms... he's just plain screwing around.

All situations are different, but as a rule I wouldn't kick a guy who is coming in to take me down.
You are giving him your leg which can become a handle/lever used to take you down, you are on one leg so his takedown will be easier, and you have reduced your mobility.

 

[Vajramusti]

All situations are different, but as a rule I wouldn't kick a guy who is coming in to take me down.
You are giving him your leg which can become a handle/lever used to take you down, you are on one leg so his takedown will be easier, and you have reduced your mobility.

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Good point-yak sao

 

[drop bear]

Cross-face

Overhook.

Sprawl.

 

[Lameman]

As a personal rule, kicking is only used defencively, against an opponant, who cannot defend against it. I have used all of the above in actual fights. Like a quick jab, a quick, straightforward kick against a distracted opponant will often get through and is hard to attack. Further, The leg is, typically, stronger then the arm. If they do grab, you can usually pull it away. But if they are diving in, their focus is elsewhere, they have too much forward momentum to dodge, its an odd grabbing angle, and they are probably not going to be able to stop it even if they do grab it. Getting kicked in the face can be very distracting. Now, not recomending this against a close fighter, control the arms and then strike. Mainly, you are talking about grappling a grappler. First, my strength against their weakness. Second, my weakness against their weakness. Third, my strength against their strength. And only out of desperation, my weakness against their strength. Don't play his game, make him play yours.

 

[drop bear]

As a personal rule, kicking is only used defencively, against an opponant, who cannot defend against it. I have used all of the above in actual fights. Like a quick jab, a quick, straightforward kick against a distracted opponant will often get through and is hard to attack. Further, The leg is, typically, stronger then the arm. If they do grab, you can usually pull it away. But if they are diving in, their focus is elsewhere, they have too much forward momentum to dodge, its an odd grabbing angle, and they are probably not going to be able to stop it even if they do grab it. Getting kicked in the face can be very distracting. Now, not recomending this against a close fighter, control the arms and then strike. Mainly, you are talking about grappling a grappler. First, my strength against their weakness. Second, my weakness against their weakness. Third, my strength against their strength. And only out of desperation, my weakness against their strength. Don't play his game, make him play yours.

Not really.
You are trading a high percentage defence for a low percentage one on the theory that nobody will expect you to kick.

There is a reason nobody expects you to kick. That is because it is one of the worst choices you could do.

Now if you were a gun grappler and knew what you were doing you could get away with all sorts of unpredictable stuff like kicking or whatever. But for everyone else you are better off learning the basics that work the best.

 

[Lameman]

In street fighting there are 4 things you never do. You never needlessly escalate a situation. You never go to ground. You never commit to a grapple. ( I almost exclusivly use open handed, pressure based grappling and if I do grab, I grab thumb up, only with the four fingers) You never kick. The trumping rule is, most of the time, if you are fighting intelligently, you win because you catch your opponant off guard. We are talking about pico seconds. You are fighting against their instincts. If they don't have a preprogrammed responce to something, fireing from the nervous system... they are a sitting target. I'm not saying go out and do something you don't know what you are doing. I'm sure wing chun has plenty of options. But if a grappler wants to grapple, he's on his home turf, playing his own game. Betting limited skill against someone who knows what they are doing, you are probably going to lose. Don't get into a situation thinking, one or two techniques, will defeat their years of experience and training. Its a bad gamble either way. You are better off, crossing your fingers, doing something unexpected, and sticking to what you know. Attack his weaknesses, not his strengths.

 

[Lameman]

Sorry for the double post, I assume the sprawl is the guy on top? He is in a very volnerable posistion, especially if his opponant isn't fighting fair. From there, you grapple? Make 'em piss blood? Hope that your grappling is better then his, like he hasn't trained for this? When you have options to simply not grapple. Maybe instead of pitting your weaknesses against his strengths, you put your strengths against his weaknesses.

 

[Phobius]

Sorry for the double post, I assume the sprawl is the guy on top? He is in a very volnerable posistion, especially if his opponant isn't fighting fair. From there, you grapple? Make 'em piss blood? Hope that your grappling is better then his, like he hasn't trained for this? When you have options to simply not grapple. Maybe instead of pitting your weaknesses against his strengths, you put your strengths against his weaknesses.

Problem being that your strengths are your weaknesses. You think kicking someone going in for a takedown is a strength of yours, it is rather your weakness because just like you assume you are a better kicker/boxer than them, they assume they are a better grappler than you. As such they will assume you counter their grappling with kicks or punches.

If A) They are not such good grapplers, so you can suprise them with kicks. Then you can also defeat them by using basics of grappling. However if B) They are experienced grapplers, they will know how to handle those kicks and punches. You will go down to the floor hard if not learning what they do and how to counter it properly.

So you have an option where you hope they are not experienced so you can kick them, taking chances. Rather than doing a sound move and assume that against all odds your opponent actually knows what to do.

Not saying you need to play a grappling game. There are other things one can do, such as keeping distance forcing them to charge or stretch in order to reach you. This will be another game in itself.

 

[geezer]

Cross-face

Overhook.

Sprawl.

I learned this when I was a kid. It stuck with me all these years and it still works for me. IMO it's something every WC guy should know.


And they should practice the "street: versions... i.e. forget what the coach in the video says about placing the cross-face "...gently across the nose..." . No, in self defense, that crossface is a forearm strike. It should move his nose across his face like Daffy Duck's beak!

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

kicking someone going in for a takedown...

IMO, a kick can be a free gift to an experienced wrestler. A wrestler may have to try very hard to get your leg. Now you just give your leg to him for free. He only have to perform 1/2 of his task this way.

 

[Vajramusti]

IMO, a kick can be a free gift to an experienced wrestler. A wrestler may have to try very hard to get your leg. Now you just give your leg to him for free. He only have to perform 1/2 of his task this way.

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Correct

 

[Dirty Dog]

IMO, a kick can be a free gift to an experienced wrestler. A wrestler may have to try very hard to get your leg. Now you just give your leg to him for free. He only have to perform 1/2 of his task this way.

Conversely, since they are an experienced wrestler, they may well have little or no experience coping with strikes. An experienced striker ought to be able to deliver kicks that are not all that easy to catch.

 

[Punchy]

Conversely, since they are an experienced wrestler, they may well have little or no experience coping with strikes. An experienced striker ought to be able to deliver kicks that are not all that easy to catch.

Perhaps, but as a striker you should also know potential downsides to using a particular technique in a given circumstance.
As an example, a chi na master is not able to execute every single technique at will, instead he knows from countless repetition when it is the proper time to execute the given technique

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Conversely, since they are an experienced wrestler, they may well have little or no experience coping with strikes. An experienced striker ought to be able to deliver kicks that are not all that easy to catch.

I like to

- kick a boxer, and
- punch a wrestler.

- Boxer like to use high stance with hands near their faces that's good at dealing with punches.
- Wrestlers like to use low stance with hands near their knees that's good at dealing with kicks.

 

[drop bear]

Conversely, since they are an experienced wrestler, they may well have little or no experience coping with strikes. An experienced striker ought to be able to deliver kicks that are not all that easy to catch.

Not from there. As the high percentage defence from a kick is to take people down. So he can still just do what he is comfortable doing.

Kicks from other positions work. But judt not to stuff a take down.

You are actually helping the guy.

 

[Lameman]

I have used it successfully in fights against experienced wrestlers. I've even used it in friendly contests where they knew it was coming and the only thing they had to do was catch or counter. Then again, we are not talking about just going out an doing this, at that time I had had over a decade daily practice. Let me throw out a story. Sometimes, I like to fall to my back, use my shoulders as a base, and then kick. Great when it works... One fight, I wasn't thinking. I was fighting a wrestler, but we were boxing. Or close there to. Anyway, I'm not making any headway, so I figured try and catch him off guard. Dropped to my back kicked him in the stomach and the next thing I know, I'm in an ankle lock. He got a black eye for his trouble, but my ankle has never been the same since. No matter what you do in a fight. You are going to take some risk. If you are thinking about what you are doing, you know your opponant, and you know your own capapbilities. You are probably going to be okay. Not taking the fight seriously, screwing around, not paying attention, you are going to get injured for life.

 

[Phobius]

IMO, a kick can be a free gift to an experienced wrestler. A wrestler may have to try very hard to get your leg. Now you just give your leg to him for free. He only have to perform 1/2 of his task this way.

Wow that was a weird quoting you did of what I said. Completely out of context and it became a meaning that I never wrote in the first place. Good job.