Internal, grappling in Wing Chun

[brothershaw]

I see this has become a UFC thread or I have jsut turned it into one. LOL

Anyway
1- alot MORE people now focus on fighting on the ground and taking people to the ground ( not necessarily a good thing) but its been getting great hype for years now
2- I THINK that if you have moderate to minimal training in ground fighting against someone with no experience you have a good advantage whereas if you have some standup training ( in punching/ striking) you have a greater chance still losing to an inexperienced person.
3- Bottom line is wing chun like MOST systems are based on taking out your oppenent b4 it goes tothe ground. In a fight anything can happen.
4- Often by the time a fight "goes " to the ground one person isnt fighting anymore they are just taking a beating, not being submitted
5- If you are half unconscious by the time you hit the ground it may not matter much what you know if you cant execute it
6- If you want to grapple learn bjj, sombo, or judo - always try to go to the experts

 

[Danny T]

I see this has become a UFC thread or I have jsut turned it into one. LOL

No I don’t believe so. Getting taken to or falling to the ground is simply something that happens in fighting. If not in a sport environment where the referee stops the action and the participants stand up again then the fighter must learn to use his/her abilities on the ground. That is all I am saying. UFC has nothing to do with it. Having the principles and being able to apply them in one environment doesn't mean you can automatically apply them and execute the applications properly in another.

Anyway
1- alot MORE people now focus on fighting on the ground and taking people to the ground ( not necessarily a good thing) but its been getting great hype for years now.

True but still important to get on the ground and experience it.

2- I THINK that if you have moderate to minimal training in ground fighting against someone with no experience you have a good advantage whereas if you have some standup training ( in punching/ striking) you have a greater chance still losing to an inexperienced person.

Murphy’s law; What can go wrong will go wrong is always in effect. I don’t care how good you are, strange things happen in combat.

3- Bottom line is wing chun like MOST systems are based on taking out your oppenent b4 it goes tothe ground. In a fight anything can happen.

True also BUT, as you state; ‘in a fight anything can happen.” So do you dismiss it and give lip service to your training or do you acknowledge it and train for that possibility.

4- Often by the time a fight "goes " to the ground one person isnt fighting anymore they are just taking a beating, not being submitted

And if this is you do just take the beating, get hurt seriously, maybe die or do you fight back. Learning to fight on the ground isn’t about submitting. Submission fighting is about submitting.

5- If you are half unconscious by the time you hit the ground it may not matter much what you know if you cant execute it

Again true however, do you just let the other person take your life? Or do you train for the possibility of getting knocked silly and fight through it. If you are knocked out you are in grave danger. The same for stand up fighting. With that as a guide why learn stand up. It won’t help you if you get caught and are knocked down or thrown down.

6- If you want to grapple learn bjj, sombo, or judo - always try to go to the experts

If you want to learn BJJ or Sombo, or Judo then by all means go to them and learn. However if you want to learn to use your skills on the ground you must get on the ground and learn to use them. That said you must learn to use them against someone who is trying to keep you down and prevent you from getting up again. You must use your skills against someone who really works to tackle you or take you down and keeps you down.. You do not have to learn the whole BJJ grappling game but you had better get on the ground and experience what you can do before being there and realizing functioning in that environment is different than being on your feet.

Danny

 

[brothershaw]

No I don’t believe so. Getting taken to or falling to the ground is simply something that happens in fighting. If not in a sport environment where the referee stops the action and the participants stand up again then the fighter must learn to use his/her abilities on the ground. That is all I am saying. UFC has nothing to do with it. Having the principles and being able to apply them in one environment doesn't mean you can automatically apply them and execute the applications properly in another.

True but still important to get on the ground and experience it.
#When I say UFC its a general term since the ufc helped create a big boost for mma and ground fighting


Murphy’s law; What can go wrong will go wrong is always in effect. I don’t care how good you are, strange things happen in combat.
#So you agree with me

True also BUT, as you state; ‘in a fight anything can happen.” So do you dismiss it and give lip service to your training or do you acknowledge it and train for that possibility.
#AS you see later on I dont dismiss it at all

And if this is you do just take the beating, get hurt seriously, maybe die or do you fight back. Learning to fight on the ground isn’t about submitting. Submission fighting is about submitting.
#As I said earlier often by the time it hits the ground one person is already taking abeating and NOT by choice, the other person isnt submitting them just beating the heck out of them


Again true however, do you just let the other person take your life? Or do you train for the possibility of getting knocked silly and fight through it. If you are knocked out you are in grave danger. The same for stand up fighting. With that as a guide why learn stand up. It won’t help you if you get caught and are knocked down or thrown down.
#If you are already getting the heck beaten out of you you dont really have a choice . People are quick to quote 99% of fights go to the ground or whatever that high percentage is supposed to be but neglect to mention that 99.9% OF FIGHTS START WHILE PEOPLE ARE STANDING UP!!!Not to mention many times people are knocked out while standing if not knocked down then stomped!! Not knocking ground fighting but good standup skills are necessary unless you think you are going to take people to the ground any and every time you get into a fight.

If you want to learn BJJ or Sombo, or Judo then by all means go to them and learn. However if you want to learn to use your skills on the ground you must get on the ground and learn to use them. That said you must learn to use them against someone who is trying to keep you down and prevent you from getting up again. You must use your skills against someone who really works to tackle you or take you down and keeps you down.. You do not have to learn the whole BJJ grappling game but you had better get on the ground and experience what you can do before being there and realizing functioning in that environment is different than being on your feet.
*****I mentioned bjj, judo and sombo to say that if you want to learn tofight on the ground go to aschool /teacher that specializes in it not sombody who just added it into thier curriculum.Dont bjj. judo newaza, and sombo teach you how to use ground fighting skills on the ground against a resisting oppenent?



You for the most part agreed with what I said although not quite how I said it.
Danny

b

 

[Danny T]

You for the most part agreed with what I said although not quite how I said it.

Yes, I agree for the most part. Many people are into ground work because it is what is happening. Others are against it because it is what is happening.

I am into it simply 'because' it happens. It happens in reality and that is what I was stating. I don't care how good you are staying on your feet if you fight enough you will eventually find yourself on the ground. I also don't feel one needs to necessarily training in a known 'ground art' to learn to survive on the ground. Especially if one is already proficient in another art which trains the practitioner to feel and use their body, such as Wing Chun. What one needs to do is get on the ground and train against someone trying to prevent them from getting up. Can you learn faster by training within a ground art. Certainly, but you don't have to train their way to learn to survive on the ground. Just as you don't need to train under any one art or a particular system to learn to be a good stand up fighter. What you have to do is train in that type of environment and in a similar way a real opponent would be trying to fight you. If it is on the ground I don't care if it is BJJ, Sombo, catch as catch can, or whatever. The human body is the human body. Some training systems expound certain aspects of fighting and not others even if the principles can be applied in all of them.

All I was stating was, in order to be a proficient fighter on the ground, even if you know the principles of fighting standing up, you must get on the ground and use the principles there against a resisting person. I say the same for weapons work. You want to be proficient against weapons you must train against an opponent trying to attack you in the manner someone would actually attack if they had that weapon. We do it for stand up empty hand but refuse to challenge ourselves in other environments.

Ever try fighting with roller skates? It's not exactly the same as being on ice but sure makes shifting your weight around and power punching different. Ever try fighting on sand, in the water, under the water, in a boat in waves, in a strong wind, on gravel, in mud, in the dark, in the woods, in a jungle, on rocky terrain, or whatever? It all changes what you do and how you do it. What works well in the gym on a nice hardwood or matted floor is quite different in the real world. You want to be proficient in the environment you are in? Then train there and in the manner you would actually have to fight if that were reality. Don't pin your life on principles you haven't used or proven yourself. Just because the principles are there doesn't mean you can use them in real time applications.

Danny.

 

[bcbernam777]

bcbernam777 I feek you make a few contradictions here.

Quote:
If trained properly the Wing Chun practicioner does not go to the ground, I think I have posted the reasons why before, but basicaly for the following reasons we dont have to end up on the ground:

Are you saying only improperly trained WC practitioners will ever go to the ground or be taken to the ground? That is liken to only improperly trained driver’s will ever get into an vehicle accident. Honestly now, you don’t really believe this do you? First you state does not go to the ground, then you explain why we don’t "have" to end up on the ground. There is a large difference between "Does not go to the ground" and "we don’t have to end up on the ground.

You need to add in the words "the goal of Wing Chun is not to go to the ground" with all due respect please quote me in context, and no i am not saying only improperly trained WC practicioners will ever go to the ground, but let me say this, you would be hard pressed to find a Wing Chun practioner who has been training properly for 20 plus years who could be taken to the ground, the zenith of Wing Chun is to not be taken to the ground, we reach for perfection through our training.



Quote:
A) firstly the Wing Chun practicioner developes a well developed root, this being the Sui Lum Tao energy, the problem is that a lot of Wing Chun Schools simply do not develop their students in this aspect of Wing Chun, in so doing they rob their students on what is realisticly the essence of its effectiveness,

This I agree with however, this still will not stop the practitioner from never ever go to the ground. So what happens if you do go to the ground? What do you call it? Laying on your back or sitting on your opponent WC? I happen to call it grappling because it denotes the range of combat we are in whether standing or on the ground.

You can certainly utilize WC in all grappling situations just as you can in a standing grappling situation. It can be called whatever you wish it is still grappling or maybe we could agree to call ground chin na, the art of seizing or grasping the opponent.


No this energy alone will not which is why you need to combine it with the other energies of the Chum kui and the Bui Jee. I have yet to find someone who can take me to ground onn a one on one situation, the dynamics may change in a multiple oponannt situation, so this is something I must as a practioner facotr into my training. Yes as I said towards the end if yu do go to the ground then Wing Chun does contain answers to the problem, however this should only ever be the exception rather than the rule.


Quote:
B) the other reasons they shouldn't go to the ground is quite simple, they move, I dont know why it is but so many students have no real world footwork, their feet are dead, they have no conception of fighting distance, or timing, or of the basic principals of true mobilolty in a real world situation

Now you say "shouldn’t go to the ground", before you stated, "does not go to the ground". Which is it?
And yes mobility is a great deterrent to being taken down however it isn’t 100% failsafe.

The "art" doesnt go to the ground, the practioner shouldn't go to the ground by being in harmony with the art. It is if properly combined with timing, an understanding of the proper fighting distance, a full range of mobility options, reaction, and total sensory perception, again it cimes down to training.


Quote:

C) another aspect is the rotational power of the Chum Kui, I have had people try to tackle me before, and utilised the rotation of the Chum Kui, they always without exemption would shoot out the other direction, it was a fundamental case of using their force against them.

Again, I agree this is a very good move which is use in many other arts as well as WC but isn’t foolproof. Even great athletes get tackled in football and rugby. We accept that as a part of the game. They work very hard at not getting caught or tackled but it still happens. I don’t believe the average WC practitioner has any more ability than them. So there is a strong possibility of being taken down also.


the key word you used was "average" the reason why Bruce was such a superb Martial artist was not by natural ability but because he pushed himself beyond the "average" bounds

Quote:
Now a couple of practical reasons why you would not want to go to the ground:

A) if you go rolling around the ground with someone you can end up with a nasty supries in your back, e.g. broken glass etc, or you could end up rolling around on some nasty terrain, bitchamun, concrete, rocks etc, etc.

B) If you do go to the ground you have no idea if the oponant has a couple of mates waiting around the corner, in that case you definitly dont want to go to the ground.

This I also agree with, I don’t want to go to the ground, but this still contradicts your previous statement of "the properly trained WC practitioner does not go to the ground.

Doesn't = Art; Shouldn't = Practioner

Quote:
The goal of Wing Chu is to not go to the ground, but if you do end up on the ground then you can still utilise enough of the principles in Wing Chun, even on the ground, to get you out of trouble, and get you back on your feet, you can still utilise the proper structure, the use of the centreline, the CK and BJ energy, the elbow line, etc etc to regain control, even on the ground.

Ahh, now the "goal" is not to go to the ground. Again a contradiction of the statement, "… WC practitioner does not go to the ground. I agree that you can utilize many WC principles on the ground and should be able to once properly trained in doing so in that environment. The principles of WC can be utilized in all aspects and arenas of combat. But if the practitioner isn’t familiar with that aspect then they will have a difficult time performing there.

Then they need to train

I have had the pleasure of training in WC for almost 2 decades. I have utilized it standing, kneeling, with weapons, and on my back. Now I’m not the greatest or even close to be a great martial artist so maybe it takes more training on my part but being able to use the WC principles in a ground position took me quite some time to become proficient at it. As to a WC practitioner not going to the ground, you have never really worked against a non stopping opponent of equal ability then. It is easy to sidestep and redirect an attacker’s energy,
1. when you know it is coming and then they stop, not continuing the attack
2. they are only committed partially to attacking you.
3. they are not as advanced as you or are considerable weaker than you.

Take someone with the same training as you and have them attack you fully committed to taking you to the ground once they are able to. I believe you or any other practitioner will have their hands full in "not going to the ground." Now this not to say I want to go to the ground for I don’t and do a lot of training to prevent it if possible. But, I am also realistic and acknowledge want can happen and am willing to training for that possibility. WC is a great system for learning about yourself, your body and how to use is all distances of fighting. I am certain you train from long distance (no contact) to bridging to very close right up to the point of the opponent or you being able to grasp the other. I'm also certain you work takedowns on the opponent, what happens if you are takendown? You must train in that environment for it is different.

Of course you will have your hands full, but this is why you train and train and train, dailly, hourly, minute by minute, finding your answers inside of the way instead of trying to attach another way which contradicts the former way.

I did not contradict myself it is just you misunderstood what it was I was trying to express

 

[brothershaw]

Heres the thing

a)THe 99.9% of fights go to the ground arguement (an exageration) was so strong, the counter arguement bemcae I dont go to the ground/ you cant take me to the ground

b)At the same time a basically "unskilled" person can tackle just about anybody and especially if they dont practice against it take the average person to the ground even if they have some training.

c)So now add in a person figures I go for the takedowns and learn to do them even and I can bypass having to trade blows/ use footwork against somebody who while standing can take me out.

So for some people C is a great option/ smart option,

Me I dont believe A, and I try to learn some ground stuff for the people who generally fall into the B and C category. Although I prefer wing chun by far.

 

[bcbernam777]

the essential problem with grappling is that it utilises an energy that is contradictory to wing chun, even the supposed chi-na in wing chun does not utilise the same energy as grappling

 

[brothershaw]

the essential problem with grappling is that it utilises an energy that is contradictory to wing chun, even the supposed chi-na in wing chun does not utilise the same energy as grappling

That may be true but if you learn more than one style you have to know to turn certain things off and not combine things as opposed to trying to do 2 different styles with the same energy/ intent.

 

[bcbernam777]

That may be true but if you learn more than one style you have to know to turn certain things off and not combine things as opposed to trying to do 2 different styles with the same energy/ intent.

This is the major problem I find with many modern Wing Chun teachers who combine their wing Chun with BJJ and Thai Kickboxing. They do this because of the supposed "holes" in the system, but if a practicioner looks into the system, he will actually find the answers to the problem within the system himself without the need to create some type of hybrid system which actually does their students a greater diservice

 

[brothershaw]

Yes but also no.
Things shouldnt be combined with a mishmosh.

However learning how to defend against things isnt magical. Just because the stuff is in the forms etc doesnt mean you will know how to use it, or just because your teacher can do it you can do it.

Its similiar to people and knife defenses some of the knife defenses they think are great a filipino martial artist would say it would never really work, because the fma guy trains more realistically against knife as opposed to other styles.

 

[bcbernam777]

Yes but also no.
Things shouldnt be combined with a mishmosh.

However learning how to defend against things isnt magical. Just because the stuff is in the forms etc doesnt mean you will know how to use it, or just because your teacher can do it you can do it.

Its similiar to people and knife defenses some of the knife defenses they think are great a filipino martial artist would say it would never really work, because the fma guy trains more realistically against knife as opposed to other styles.

So the key is more realistic training, under proper instruction, so as to utilise the principles in a more realistic setting

 

[brothershaw]

Yes.

 

[Danny T]

I did not contradict myself it is just you misunderstood what it was I was trying to express

Ok, I misunderstood your “Doesn't = Art; Shouldn't = Practioner”.
I still believe strongly you still must train in the environment you are fighting in. That doesn’t mean a WC person must do BJJ or Sambo or whatever.

I don’t feel the goal of Wing Chun is to not go to the ground. I believer the goal of Wing Chun (the system) is to destroy the opponent in the most direct, and economical fashion the practitioner can. If you happen to find yourself on the ground then Wing Chun (the system) does have the answers BUT the practitioner must get on the ground and train there.

Danny

 

[Danny T]

bcbernam777This is the major problem I find with many modern Wing Chun teachers who combine their wing Chun with BJJ and Thai Kickboxing. They do this because of the supposed "holes" in the system, but if a practicioner looks into the system, he will actually find the answers to the problem within the system himself without the need to create some type of hybrid system which actually does their students a greater disservice

brothershaw, Yes but also no.
Things shouldnt be combined with a mishmosh.

However learning how to defend against things isnt magical. Just because the stuff is in the forms etc doesnt mean you will know how to use it, or just because your teacher can do it you can do it.

Its similiar to people and knife defenses some of the knife defenses they think are great a filipino martial artist would say it would never really work, because the fma guy trains more realistically against knife as opposed to other styles.


bcbernam777, So the key is more realistic training, under proper instruction, so as to utilise the principles in a more realistic setting

YES!! Absolutely and the settings must be in the different environments one may find themselves in. Standing on different surfaces, on the ground, with weapons, against multiple opponents and the attacks must be hard committed and continued attacks against you. Not a one or two punch, kick attacks while you perform multiple counter attacks and take downs.

Danny