Wing Chun grappling

[geezer]

The sprawl is in the first form of WC. I was just shown this. This is why I post here now to spread the gospel ( really just to pay homage to my teacher and his teaching)..I just learned this last week. Ok really last month but same same.

Excuse me? The sprawl is in SNT form? That's crazy? Who told you that??? Was it Jeff ...or Martin? And besides doesn't it tick you off that those guys, neither of whom are 'Chunners, can teach you all this crazy stuff about WC?

...And what's more, you learned this sometime in the last month, ...precisely when I've been too far behind at work to make the 30 mile drive (each way) to work out with you guys. I find that very suspicious. Fortunately, this next Saturday is the big FMA gathering in Phoenix, at Encanto Park. Martin and Jeff are both on the list of instructors demonstrating. Tiny will probably be there too. And so will I. So anyway, Bub, you can bet I'm gonna get to the bottom of this. I don't care if it's WC, DTE, or the freakin' Iluminati.

Oh and how's this strike you: The inner Jake revealed!

http://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net...er_Jake.png/revision/latest?cb=20120825091319

 

[Danny T]

Excuse me? The sprawl is in SNT form? That's crazy? Who told you that??? Was it Jeff ...or Martin? And besides doesn't it tick you off that those guys, neither of whom are 'Chunners, can teach you all this crazy stuff about WC?

...And what's more, you learned this sometime in the last month, ...precisely when I've been too far behind at work to make the 30 mile drive (each way) to work out with you guys. I find that very suspicious. Fortunately, this next Saturday is the big FMA gathering in Phoenix, at Encanto Park. Martin and Jeff are both on the list of instructors demonstrating. Tiny will probably be there too. And so will I. So anyway, Bub, you can bet I'm gonna get to the bottom of this. I don't care if it's WC, DTE, or the freakin' Iluminati.

Oh and how's this strike you: The inner Jake revealed!

http://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net...er_Jake.png/revision/latest?cb=20120825091319

Whoa...
I am a rather open-minded person when it comes to the concepts in WC but the sprawl in SNT is a stretch... a long stretch. So long that I have a lot of difficulty seeing it... so much so that I don't see it at all. Even with all the sinking of the body... nope I don't see the sprawl in SNT.

 

[wckf92]

But the sprawl is essentially what I mean. WC has this body mechanic. Its just not surface layer stuff. Its a few layers in and missed by most....The sprawl is in the first form of WC.

Heck yeah it is! Nice post Jake. And quite correct. When you eliminate lineal thinking, WC opens up wide. I learned this 1st form jewel many years ago.
Keep posting Jake!

 

[PiedmontChun]

Whoa...
I am a rather open-minded person when it comes to the concepts in WC but the sprawl in SNT is a stretch... a long stretch. So long that I have a lot of difficulty seeing it... so much so that I don't see it at all. Even with all the sinking of the body... nope I don't see the sprawl in SNT.

I dunno about SNT, but I see a potential "sprawl" application from the Chum Kiu step practiced in the front kick / double tan / double low bong portion of the form.

 

[Punchy]

I dunno about SNT, but I see a potential "sprawl" application from the Chum Kiu step practiced in the front kick / double tan / double low bong portion of the form.

Just the whole concept of CK would not rule out a sprawl as a last ditch maneuver to avoid a take down.
SNT teaches body unity...among other things of course, whereas CK teaches how to move the unified body through space, whether to nullify force from an incoming attack or to multiply your own force into an attack

 

[Danny T]

Spraw potential in CK and in BJ; agreed.

 

[geezer]

Spraw potential in CK and in BJ; agreed.

Personally I think it's "a stretch" to find the sprawl in any of the forms. On the other hand, the IMO a sprawl is the "last best hope" to counter a shoot, and I feel it is a logical extension of basic WC principles and structure, especially maintaining forward intent and pressure though the stance and hips. And this is at the core of SNT.

So to summarize: SNT teaches forward pressure from pelvis/hips. A sprawl uses this same kind of pressure downwards, towards an opponent's center. So to me that means the sprawl is consistent with WC. It does not mean that the sprawl is literally in our forms. As you said, the potential is there.

Now Jake... if I'm wrong, get back on here and set me straight!

 

[geezer]

When you eliminate lineal thinking..

Wait... do me linear thinking? 'Cause people tell me I moved beyond linear thinking ages ago.

OK, actually they tell me I'm totally random and make no sense, but I think it sounds better the way I phrased it.

 

[Danny T]

Personally I think it's "a stretch" to find the sprawl in any of the forms. On the other hand, the IMO a sprawl is the "last best hope" to counter a shoot, and I feel it is a logical extension of basic WC principles and structure, especially maintaining forward intent and pressure though the stance and hips. And this is at the core of SNT.

So to summarize: SNT teaches forward pressure from pelvis/hips. A sprawl uses this same kind of pressure downwards, towards an opponent's center. So to me that means the sprawl is consistent with WC. It does not mean that the sprawl is literally in our forms. As you said, the potential is there.

Now Jake... if I'm wrong, get back on here and set me straight!

Ok, I'll give in on that when knowing other parts of the system and viewing SNT as an all encompassing reference for the system as a whole, then yes sprawl potential is there. The concept or idea of using what one learns within SNT about intent and pressure through the hips and the leg positioning in the stance can be utilized for numerous applications but that sprawl is in SNT alone... I don't see it. As to applications being literally within the forms... my opinion is there there are far more not shown than that are. The practitioner with a openness to experiment must play with their ideas of what is applicable and when is it applicable. There are far more uses of the movements and positions than what many see or know of.

 

[JowGaWolf]

y opinion is there there are far more not shown than that are. The practitioner with a openness to experiment must play with their ideas of what is applicable and when is it applicable. There are far more uses of the movements and positions than what many see or know of.

I agree 100%

 

[wckf92]

...it is a logical extension of basic WC principles and structure...
...So to me that means the sprawl is consistent with WC. It does not mean that the sprawl is literally in our forms. As you said, the potential is there.

Correct.

I think most WC'ers would agree that having to be in a situation where we sprawl isn't desirable; but reacting with a sprawl is consistent with WC's basic idea of not fighting force against force, etc.

The forms and ideas within, when used either on your back, on your face, or on your side, are quite interesting and deserve to be explored.

 

[TSDTexan]

I find the tenant of not fighting force with force to be a good one, but for myself I don't view it as an absolute.

WC stipulated not to train to fight force against force because the opponent maybe stronger and that would work against you.

WC also doesn't gamble, and is pretty conservative.

And while this is true *no force vs force* equals ideal path, sometimes, if you are significantly stonger, and force vs force is the shorter route to ending the fight.

I place a caveat that force vs force is viable when two conditions are present.

1. Strength mismatch in your favor.
2. Ability to successfully misdirection, and deceptive subterfuge are present.

If one is stronger then the opponent, and fools the opponent in believing the opposite is true... well lets just say the application is wide and deep.

 

[Jake104]

Excuse me? The sprawl is in SNT form? That's crazy? Who told you that??? Was it Jeff ...or Martin? And besides doesn't it tick you off that those guys, neither of whom are 'Chunners, can teach you all this crazy stuff about WC?

...And what's more, you learned this sometime in the last month, ...precisely when I've been too far behind at work to make the 30 mile drive (each way) to work out with you guys. I find that very suspicious. Fortunately, this next Saturday is the big FMA gathering in Phoenix, at Encanto Park. Martin and Jeff are both on the list of instructors demonstrating. Tiny will probably be there too. And so will I. So anyway, Bub, you can bet I'm gonna get to the bottom of this. I don't care if it's WC, DTE, or the freakin' Iluminati.

Oh and how's this strike you: The inner Jake revealed!

http://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net...er_Jake.png/revision/latest?cb=20120825091319

I won't ... I'm signed up with my lovely wife to assist with the WipeOut run in Phoenix. So Sorry
I will not see you tomorrow Steve....Martin FWIW!!! I'm going to tell him you said he's not a chunner. You better be in disguise tomorrow.. Hahaha! He'll probably take it as a compliment? He is a MA genius IMO. Thanks for turning me onto DTE STEVEY!... For reals, he showed me where SLT has the sprawl.

 

[Jake104]

Spraw potential in CK and in BJ; agreed.

I think it's potentially in multiple places. Although I've only been shown where it's in the first form.

 

[Jake104]

Personally I think it's "a stretch" to find the sprawl in any of the forms. On the other hand, the IMO a sprawl is the "last best hope" to counter a shoot, and I feel it is a logical extension of basic WC principles and structure, especially maintaining forward intent and pressure though the stance and hips. And this is at the core of SNT.

So to summarize: SNT teaches forward pressure from pelvis/hips. A sprawl uses this same kind of pressure downwards, towards an opponent's center. So to me that means the sprawl is consistent with WC. It does not mean that the sprawl is literally in our forms. As you said, the potential is there.

Now Jake... if I'm wrong, get back on here and set me straight!

You're wrong dang it!! You're almost 60 right? Didn't you're generation used to say. " Open you're mind man" " free you're mind brother". You must of not smoked enough weed in the 70's? It's never to late lol... It's about idea's Steve. The first form is full of little idea's... Pull back the layers buddy...Pulling back the layers. That's what it's all about. Have fun tomorrow. I want to make one of those gatherings eventually.

 

[Jake104]

Ok, I'll give in on that when knowing other parts of the system and viewing SNT as an all encompassing reference for the system as a whole, then yes sprawl potential is there. The concept or idea of using what one learns within SNT about intent and pressure through the hips and the leg positioning in the stance can be utilized for numerous applications but that sprawl is in SNT alone... I don't see it. As to applications being literally within the forms... my opinion is there there are far more not shown than that are. The practitioner with a openness to experiment must play with their ideas of what is applicable and when is it applicable. There are far more uses of the movements and positions than what many see or know of.

The idea is. Maybe it's just that, an idea, IDK? But, like I said, I was shown where it IS or can be.

I know all the forms. But there is something interesting to me about the first form. It always draws me back to it for reference. I'll be shown something and I'll have a lightbulb, aww hah moment. It always seems to lead me back to SLT/SNT? I can't really explain it?

 

[Eric_H]

The idea is. Maybe it's just that, an idea, IDK? But, like I said, I was shown where it IS or can be.

I know all the forms. But there is something interesting to me about the first form. It always draws me back to it for reference. I'll be shown something and I'll have a lightbulb, aww hah moment. It always seems to lead me back to SLT/SNT? I can't really explain it?

I have trouble seeing a sprawl in WC's SNT as is violates self centerline/center of gravity principles, but I'd like to see it before I make any final call on it. Is there a vid explaining the linkage anywhere?

 

[Danny T]

But there is something interesting to me about the first form. It always draws me back to it for reference. I'll be shown something and I'll have a lightbulb, aww hah moment. It always seems to lead me back to SLT/SNT? I can't really explain it?

SNT is the beginner form and as one learns other parts of the system when returning to SNT it is referenced there. After learning and gaining a understanding of the whole system one should realize SNT is the most advanced form for it is the reference book for the whole system.

 

[Vajramusti]

Correct

 

[JPinAZ]

Agreed. One of the purposes of forms is to drill techniques until they are installed into the autonomic subconscious neural level. Instinctively reactive with muscle memory. The subconscious recognizes and the body reacts as trained.

The force of repetition is what makes tricky things doable in a real fight.

I agree with the first part on it's own. And maybe it was just an oversight or I misread you, but there is a significant difference between solo form drilling and application drilling. If you only do form drilling, yes the mechanics and positions are ingrained in the body, but they won't come out instinctively/'body reacts' unless extensively against outside stimulus via partner drilling.