What items would you say I’m “making up”?
Well, let's cover that as we go...
This assumes that Classical JJ systems are fine cuisine while modern systems are fast food. In actuality, a better analogy would be that it's all fast food, with classical systems being that fast food shack you find in a random small town with questionable quality versus McDonalds which is found all over the world that you can sue if you get sick from an undercook fish sandwich.
No, my analogy is correct... yours is, to be frank, deeply ignorant of the situation.
Look, I thought about the idea of fast food versus a more local, specialised burger place... I thought the idea of equating something like BJJ to McDonalds (or similar) was potentially doing it a dis-service... but, the more I thought about it, the more it became obvious that this was really the only way to look at the difference with any real sense of the real separation between them.
To be clear, I'm not using the McDonalds analogy to imply the "McDojo" label (one that, honestly, is more apt here than is realised, and is often used to imply things that aren't necessarily present in the real idea of a McDojo as was initially conceived... such as the idea that a McDojo is automatically lower quality in instruction... it may be, but is not definitively accurate). Instead, I'm using the analogy as a way to indicate the spread of the art, and it's ubiquitousness in the current martial arts landscape. As you've noted, BJJ schools are everywhere... and, like McDonalds, you can go to one pretty much anywhere and get slight variations, but still be fairly confident of what you're going to get.
By contrast, classical jujutsu systems are most commonly one-off's... possibly with a few locations... they are a far more specialised offering, but with the highest of quality control (again, you really need to get what that means in this context, because it has absolutely nothing to do with what you think of as "quality"), and a unique mixture of "flavours" that set that particular school apart from everything else everywhere. There is no better food analogy to that than a Michelin Star restaurant... most commonly single, or only a few locations for each... not "franchised out", certainly not found in multiple locations in each city around the world... and what you get in one is unique to the chef behind the restaurant itself. It is a unique menu, a unique set of flavours, drawn from a particular culture and approach that you simply won't find elsewhere.
The idea that it is the same, or even close, to a "fast food shack" is laughable... and your insistence of "questionable quality" is just sad. This is what O'Malley was meaning when he said you insist on making things up without any real basis... among other things... so you know... Michelin Star restaurants maintain their quality by having few locations, and maintaining the control over their menu, atmosphere, decor, setting, location, and so on... to a great degree, they also control their clientele... which again puts this in the same realm as Classical Japanese arts. Not everyone can get in... reservations/entry are limited and rare... it's up to the restaurant if you get a seat in many cases... and, honestly, not everyone even wants to eat at a Michelin Star restaurant. Some will think their overly stuffy... pretentious... gauche... too expensive... or simply not to their taste. And that's the same with classical systems. BJJ, on the other hand, is good for appealing to a wider clientele. Classical arts don't need, or want that.
In that proper comparison, fast food is immediately associated with McDonald's due to its dominance on the fast food landscape. I'm arguing that Bjj is doing the exact same thing with Jiujitsu.
Leaving off that, as I just demonstrated, it's simply not a "proper" comparison, you've kinda restated my point there. Yes, BJJ has done a great job of spreading itself out through the world... hats off to them... that's what makes them the "McDonalds" of the current martial art scene. Classical systems don't want to do that. Really, BJJ is not competing against classical jujutsu... we're not even in the same arena. It'd be like saying that Keeping Up With The Kardashians is taking an audience away from art galleries.
Sure, Sal's Burger and Fries will always be on its tiny corner on the south side of Memphis, but if I'm driving through Tennessee and want a fast food burger, I'm more than likely stopping at McDonald's.
Yes, you are. Mainly as it suits your needs, you know what you're getting, and you know you're likely to find it. What's your point?
Yes, there are classical jujutsu schools that constantly teeter on the edge of extinction. Interesting that you consider this a good thing.
I wouldn't put it like that, but yeah, I do. Of course, and I know this has been said, as I've said it a few dozen times in this thread, but that's due to a completely different set of values to what you are used to. You don't have to understand it, but you do need to recognise that other values exist, and are applied in areas you simply don't have the experience or knowledge to comment on.
Because the people seeking out those systems are more than likely seeking them out for self defense and fighting purposes. Obviously some aren't, but many are, like that guy in the article I posted.
No, they're seeking an image they have in their head. If they actually find a classical system, they'll often find that it doesn't match it, so they won't stick around... and if they do, it's for many other reasons beyond fighting ability. And really, if you're after modern self defence, what good is a system that teaches you how to assassinate a friend/colleague by offering them tea....?
Araki Ryu (other versions of the first few techniques have you stab the other guy to death after throwing the tea in his face... real "self defence" stuff here...)
When it comes to the guy in the article, he had an idea of what he thought he was after... but when he saw how these systems were structured, he didn't like it... it didn't match his image... which is the reality. So no, people coming to a classical system aren't doing so due to desires of self defence and fighting as a foremost reason in the majority of cases.
Because people seeking out classical Jujitsu study tend to run across schools like that before ever running across a legitimate JJJ dojo, which leads to the perception that JJJ is ineffective for self defense/fighting purposes. That in turn, pushes even more people into Bjj because it's viewed as a safe bet.
It's lead to that perception in you, as you have been unable to discern the difference. Here's the thing, though... they aren't actual Japanese jujutsu... traditional or classical... or anything really close to it. So we don't really care what impression they give, as it's not an impression of us. You might as well say that people get the wrong idea about spy craft from watching James Bond... it's true, but doesn't affect the actual intelligence operatives...
And you really need to drop the idea of "effectiveness"... it's part of your marketing, not ours... so doesn't really bear relevance in terms of going one way or the other. To put it back in culinary terms, complaining that the vegetarian restaurant doesn't know how to prepare your steak isn't really a valid complaint... it's a matter of having the wrong expectations and values going in. If you want steak... don't go to a vegetarian restaurant.
I'll be blunt as well; There's a difference between a martial art designed for self defense and fighting, and a martial art designed to play dress up on the weekends. Part of the reason classical martial arts as a whole are on the decline is because they want to be the latter instead of the former.
Ooh, bluntness... fun.
Blunt time.
You have absolutely no clue. This is borderline insulting, and would be if I thought you even knew the first thing about what you are saying.
Classical arts are not on the decline.
"Playing dress ups" is not even a part of it.
You have literally no way of appreciating other people's values, do you?
The idea that people choose JJJ over BJJ because they're more "educated" is laughable.
Actually, no. It's an observable reality. Teachers of classical systems are far more interested in your level of education, your job stability and so on than what other arts you may have done... in fact, we'll reject students who don't measure up. In addition, due to the manner and method of such traditions, the deeper cultural implications and context, and far more, coupled with the need to be able to adopt a number of aspects of a foreign culture (language, manners, etiquette, thinking frameworks), then yeah... classical arts tend to attract more educated people. By design and by virtue of what they are.
People choose classical martial arts over BJJ for a host of reasons. I'll be blunt again; One of the reasons someone would go to a classical JJJ school over a BJJ school is because they're afraid of rolling with people larger than themselves, or getting embarrassed by being choked out by someone smaller than themselves.
Please. Get over yourself, yeah? The vast majority have backgrounds in arts like judo... in fact, it's considered a requisite in some schools... Ellis Amdur (who teaches a line of Araki Ryu, shown above) requires at least 6 months of serious grappling training (Judo, BJJ, wrestling) for any potential student, in addition to the other requirements... Sosuishi Ryu has had a strong relationship with Kodokan Judo since the Kodokan's inception, which continues to today... meaning a number of Sosuishi Ryu schools also teach judo alongside the classical arts... and frankly, some of the scariest training is found in classical arts... you really need to get over this bizarre idea that people who engage in systems without a competitive side are "afraid" of either competition or rolling/sparring. It's not the case, it's not supported at all by the reality of the practitioners (or the schools), and just makes you sound like an egotistical jerk. I'm sure you don't want that impression to come across, yeah?
When they do grow the stones to pop into a Bjj gym and put their "black belt" to the test, they get completely outclassed by a junior white belt and they walk (or run) out of the gym never to be seen again. Again, some people want to learn how to defend themselves, other want to pretend like they're living in 17th century Japan. Your mileage may vary.
HA!!!!!!!!!!
"Put their black belt to the test".....
HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Dude... what "black belt"? Does it come with a sho-mokuroku? Or do you have to wait until menkyo? Do you have any idea why this is funny?
Again, you're putting your values into a context where they simply don't fit or have any bearing. Do some classical art practitioners want to also address that side of training, and cross train in things like BJJ or judo? Yes. But more than not, it's to act as a supplement to their training, and is done with the idea of furthering their understanding of their primary art... so have no problem whatsoever in "letting go" of any ego to learn. It's what we do, really. But, it cannot be understated, most practitioners are already coming from such backgrounds... and are searching for more than the simple idea of "effectiveness" in a limited context.
Except the majority of people taking Bjj are doing it for self defense, not the competitive side of it. Which I'm willing to bet (Self defense) is the main reason the majority of people take up martial arts period, including classical jujutsu.
It's an oft-cited reason... however BJJ's "effectiveness in self defence" is demonstrated/marketed through it's competitive side... that's really where the reputation and image comes from. Claiming one context when really demonstrating another. Now, that's not an issue... the conflation of the two contexts into one image is not uncommon, nor is it poorly done. Is it incorrect, or misleading? Yeah, it is... but not in a way that is overly meaningful to most.
As far as Classical Japanese arts, while it's a sometimes (not: not oft)-cited reason, it's quickly apparent that it's a poor fit to most. So if that's really the primary motivator, most people don't stick around a classical tradition... yes, it can be utilised in self defence (in a way), depending on the system (I've heard accounts of people using Shindo Muso Ryu methods employing an evasion and jam using a broom handle against someone with a knife... but that's an outlier as an example), but that's not the primary applicable approach. Combat, yes, but combat within a context... and the real lesson is to do with the mentality than the physicality. After all, if you grew up listening to Led Zeppelin and Jimmy Hendrix, and wanted to play their music, specifically on guitar, but the only music teacher around taught tuba... well, you're going to get some transferable skills like understanding scales, motifs, reading music etc... but you certainly ain't gonna learn guitar that way. Or, a bit more accurately, the music teacher only taught harpsichord...
I'm also well aware of authenticity being a major concern among traditional jujutsu folks. It's a major concern among Bjj practitioners as well. Heck, I'm willing to bet (again) that the majority of people taking up MA are quite concerned about whether or not they're learning from a qualified/authentic instructor.
Sure. I said as much myself. Of course, the form that authenticity takes, how it manifests itself, and so on is rather different.
See? Our values aren't much different than yours.
When you show the first indication of understanding, or at least trying to understand the values of others, rather than just continually applying your own, I might believe that. Until then, as I actually do have experience in modern and classical systems, I think I'll go with my understanding of the differing value sets.
Again though, the vast majority of people take up martial arts for self defense and fitness.
That, I would dispute. As is often said, there are as many reasons for someone wanting to take up martial arts as there are people doing martial arts... whether they can express it as anything more than the simple reasons suggested is another thing, of course... and, it must be said, those two values are going to have a much higher rate of likelihood for people doing competitive systems... in other words... dude... your values are not applicable to classical traditions. They may factor for some people, but they are not, in the main, primary reasons.
A tiny (and ever shrinking) minority take it up to pretend to be Samurai and revel in cultural preservation of a culture they don't belong to. So yes, "performance" is going to align similarly for the vast majority of MA practitioners out there, which again explains why Bjj is as popular as it is, and becoming even more popular as time goes on.
Wow... okay, yeah, insulted now. "Pretend to be samurai"?!?! One of the reasons we tend to insist on more mature, educated, stable personalities to train with us to avoid such personalities who may want to do such things.
And you're still not understanding the differing contexts of "performance" here. I'm not denying that a popular system that is relatively prominent in it's presentation is going to match (mainly through shaping) the expectations of prospective students, and therefore be popular... that's kinda human nature 101 there... but here's a thing... do you remember before BJJ? Before the first UFC? Ground fighting was not overly thought of... why? Was it that it didn't work? That it was "ineffective"? That it didn't take skill? That it couldn't be demonstrated? No. It was more that the popular image of "fighting" was based in things like boxing, then (to a lesser degree) judo... where ground fighting was minimalised... so when the first UFC happened, and Royce was caught on the ground for 20 minutes with Ken Shamrock in the 5th UFC event, the audience booed... they were bored... as it wasn't what they had learnt to expect as "fighting". It took a while to get people to change their mind, and the Gracies' were phenomenal at that. Of course, that changed... but we'll cover that in a bit.
You speak for all classical arts? Interesting.
No, I am giving you some insight into the mentality of the classical arts, in as general a fashion as possible.
I've already explained this.
No, you haven't. The question is, if we are looking at the idea of classical/traditional Japanese jujutsu being "replaced", what do non-classical, non-traditional, non-Japanese pseudo-jujutsu systems have to do with the discussion? And saying that it's that what most people find means nothing... it doesn't suddenly actually make them relevant. Just... a distraction.
Those earlier trends lasted 3-5 years. The Bjj "trend" has lasted almost 30 years.
Well, that's wrong on a few counts.
Firstly, these trends tend to be more 10-15 years. In the 50's it was primarily Judo and Japanese/Okinawan karate, due to the US GI's learning as part of the occupying force. The 60's were dominated by karate, mostly sport and Korean variants (TKD), as it was the rise of the tournament scene. That gave rise to personalities, such as Chuck Norris, which naturally lead through to movies... and the rise of kung fu from the late 60's through the 70's. The movie scene then shifted again, birthing what was called the "ninja boom" of the late 70's through the 80's. This took us to the early 90's, which saw two main forms rise up to capture the imaginations of potential students. One was BJJ, through the Gracie's promotion and use of the UFC (really a brilliant marketing tool for them initially); the other was the rise of RBSD... however that was far more confronting, so BJJ, being safer and far less scary, won out. By the end of the 90's, though, and heading into the early 2000's, the Gracie's strategies kinda backfired with the UFC taking on it's own form, and promoting "real violence"... which had systems like Krav Maga and RBSD approaches come to the fore again. Through a shrewd business approach, by the mid-2000's, Dana White had salvaged the reputation and image of the UFC (with similar formats coming up and benefiting from this), which has lead to the major trend for the last decade or so... which is not BJJ. It's MMA. In fact, BJJ's "run" as a trend was basically from about 1993 to around 1998... what has kept it going has been the promotion of it as a staple of MMA training... not BJJ for it's own sake.
As you can see, the trends often run from one to the next... arts that are hugely popular at one point slow to a more steady simmer... for systems like BJJ, it's place as part of MMA training has kept it in good stead... but thinking it's been the top trend for 30 years is just denialism or delusion. Is it popular? Yes. As was TKD. And Judo. Do you see those going anywhere, even though no-one's making movies about TKD anymore? Nope. Did MMA kill off TKD? Nope. Did BJJ kill off Judo? Not at all. Are these arts still flavour of the month? Do you see where we're going with this?
So no it isn't just popular culture, imagery, marketing, etc. that drives its popularity (though those are part of it).
It really is. And if you don't see that, then you have no idea of how popularity and promotion works. Your'e just not recognising how that marketing was done, and how it worked...
The difference is that those earlier crazes were largely based on fantasy with nothing backing them up.
No, the difference is that they appealed to the values and mentality of the people at the time. Early "crazes" for Judo and karate were based on the exotic nature, as well as the effectiveness as applied by (dominantly) military servicemen who had also been trained in some of these methods. Coming out of a World War (and heading into the Korean conflict) had people wanting to feel safe... so it appealed to them then. After a while, escapism became more valued, so movies had more of an influence... and so on and so forth. As Tony said, it's all ebbs and flows... it'll swing back the other way at some point. Hell, it might be through this current global craziness we're going through now... coming out of it, people might not want to roll around on the ground with someone (pandemics can change behaviours that way, you know), so they'll look for other approaches... the next major trend might be weapon work, as it allows you to work from a distance... it might be Kendo and Iaido... the first is distanced, competitive, and you wear a mask.. the second is a solo exercise form (in the main), so you don't have to get close to anyone, but is less physically confronting (although I would say more mentally stressing and demanding). Or we could see Tai-Bo making a return, as people look for something martial-themed with more of a fitness element (again, health being a major concern coming out of a pandemic), that doesn't require someone two inches from your face. Time will tell.
The Ninja trend for example was largely based on action movies where you had actors doing Ninja stuff. That in turn led to a flood of ninjutsu schools with not a whole lot of quality behind them.
That's where it came from, yeah... of course, the "flood of ninja schools with not a whole lot of quality" I don't blame on the movies... I have other persons I lay that blame squarely at the feet of... but that's not something I'm going into detail on here.
Bjj on the other hand got popular through a NHB bout where a smaller fighter bested a string of fighters who were larger than he was.
That was an announcement... but it was not what changed people's minds. It was just the start of it. And, let's be very, very clear here... that whole thing was a marketing play by the Gracies. Pure and simple. It was set up to showcase their art, and worked well. Of course, people didn't get it at the time (as mentioned, complaining and booing at the length of "inaction" seen, not understanding why people were tapping out, and so on), but the Gracie's persisted, and eventually started to build their arts reputation. I will say that a number of their methods were... less than straight up. Taking out full page ads in entertainment magazines to challenge people who had absolutely nothing to gain, like Benny "The Jet" Urquidez... issuing a challenge to Mike Tyson (when he was in jail), and so on... dude... it was ALL publicity, image-making, propaganda, and marketing. The reason they took out ads in entertainment magazines? The same reason they held that first UFC... they were opening schools in the US, notably in LA and Hollywood, and wanted the publicity... so they took out ads and put on shows where people would see them. Not martial artists. The people.
There was a reality behind it, and 30 years later, that reality is still in place.
Please. There is no "reality" behind it. It's just a somewhat less-limited form of competition. There's just as much reality in a Judo competition... or a kendo match... or a point-karate tournament. It's just differing contexts, rulesets, and limitations. Anyone who thinks that equals "reality" has no clue.
Like I said to Tony, the Bjj "trend" doesn't end until someone dojo storms a Bjj gym and wrecks the entire class the way Bjj did back in the day.
No, it doesn't require that. Or, more accurately, it didn't require that. As I said, the BJJ "trend" is over. It has been for nearly 20 years. Is it still popular? Yep. So are a lot of former trends. But it's not the current trend. That's more MMA than anything else right now. All that's required for a trend to be superseded by another is for the second one to capture the people's imagination more. Which MMA did, taking over for BJJ, quite a while back... but, honestly, BJJ's push to be seen as "real", and "more realistic than other arts" was what really doomed it's trend... as that gave rise to even more "realistic" approaches... Krav Maga and RBSD. They were then taken over by MMA... which is just as much a spectator thing as a participant thing (you can't really be a spectator for Krav Maga and RBSD... they don't make good movies), allowing it to capture imagination back again.
Really, I don't think you get what a trend is.
That fact is why you’re seeing Bjj, an American martial art, penetrate other countries on the level it has, including Japan.
And no-one has disputed that. Hell, I've said multiple times that BJJ has been incredibly successful in spreading out to the world... but that's not the case you put forth. You put forth that BJJ was "replacing" traditional/Classical Japanese jujutsu... and it's not. They don't share the same sphere, they don't even breathe the same air. Both are just fine being what they are.