Will Brazilian Jiujitsu eventually replace Japanese Jujitsu?

[Hanzou]

Curious what level of competence do you feel qualifies someone to determine if a technique is valid without pressure testing it?

BJJ Purple, BJJ Black?
Judo 1st Dan?
etc

Way beyond that, and from multiple masters with fighting and/or instructional experience.

 

[Hanzou]

BTW, just to further the point of the "old master" stories, here's a vid of those infamous Hong Kong rooftop fights;

I would say martial arts has improved a great deal in the last 60 years.

 

[dunc]

Way beyond that, and from multiple masters with fighting and/or instructional experience.

OK then, why not just test them for yourself?

For example, in my experience:
A couple of the escapes shown rely 100% on the attacker not engaging their left hand, I think that's pretty obvious if you watch them, but it's also very easy to test (although please don't throw someone if they are clamped onto your neck)

In the older traditions, where I assume Kano got the idea from, one has to set up the escapes by dealing with the connection of the attackers hands/arms whilst gaining a structural advantage
This requires a bit of work and is very hard to do without strikes etc, which is why I assume they got simplified by Kano-sensei

So my take on several of the judo goshinjutsu techniques taught in BJJ is that they've lost something in translation and are being preserved in the same way that they were taught by earlier generations (sounds familiar?)

In my view they would benefit from a) looking back in time to the earlier versions of the techniques that are more practical and b) pressure testing them

 

[Hanzou]

OK then, why not just test them for yourself?

What makes you think I haven't?

For example, in my experience:
A couple of the escapes shown rely 100% on the attacker not engaging their left hand, I think that's pretty obvious if you watch them, but it's also very easy to test (although please don't throw someone if they are clamped onto your neck)

The one shown by Rickson and the Tritach guys is based on the concept that you're performing the counter before the second arm is engaged. In other words, as soon as someone wraps their initial arm around your neck, you counter. That isn't necessarily a counter to the RNC, its more along the lines of someone wrapping their arm around your neck and pulling you backwards.

Stephan Kesting and the Submission 101 (mainly 10th planet) folks deal more with the RNC variation of the counter. Kesting even explains why you're probably not going to do the throw if both arms are engaged. The same general principles apply though.

In the older traditions, where I assume Kano got the idea from, one has to set up the escapes by dealing with the connection of the attackers hands/arms whilst gaining a structural advantage
This requires a bit of work and is very hard to do without strikes etc, which is why I assume they got simplified by Kano-sensei

So my take on several of the judo goshinjutsu techniques taught in BJJ is that they've lost something in translation and are being preserved in the same way that they were taught by earlier generations (sounds familiar?)

In my view they would benefit from a) looking back in time to the earlier versions of the techniques that are more practical and b) pressure testing them

I disagree. Being older or traditional doesn't always equate to "better". Modern Bjj is integrating MMA-based wrestling these days and slowly moving away from Judo and even the older Gracie JJ standing grappling concepts for standing grappling entries. Let's put it this way; Rickson Gracie, Dean Lister, Bernardo Faria, and Bas Rutten would maul classical Japanese JJ masters from hundreds of years ago. That being the case, if Dean Lister or Bas Rutten puts out an instructional on a technique, it's hard to make the argument for not going with the superior martial artists over the inferior ones.

I gotta say though that Rutten's instructional on how to escape the standing RNC is absolutely crazy..... Which is pretty much Bas Rutten in a nutshell.

 

[dunc]

What makes you think I haven't?



The one shown by Rickson and the Tritach guys is based on the concept that you're performing the counter before the second arm is engaged. In other words, as soon as someone wraps their initial arm around your neck, you counter. That isn't necessarily a counter to the RNC, its more along the lines of someone wrapping their arm around your neck and pulling you backwards.

Stephan Kesting and the Submission 101 (mainly 10th planet) folks deal more with the RNC variation of the counter. Kesting even explains why you're probably not going to do the throw if both arms are engaged. The same general principles apply though.

I disagree. Being older or traditional doesn't always equate to "better". Modern Bjj is integrating MMA-based wrestling these days and slowly moving away from Judo and even the older Gracie JJ standing grappling concepts for standing grappling entries. Let's put it this way; Rickson Gracie, Dean Lister, Bernardo Faria, and Bas Rutten would maul classical Japanese JJ masters from hundreds of years ago. That being the case, if Dean Lister or Bas Rutten puts out an instructional on a technique, it's hard to make the argument for not going with the superior martial artists over the inferior ones.

I gotta say though that Rutten's instructional on how to escape the standing RNC is absolutely crazy..... Which is pretty much Bas Rutten in a nutshell.

Yeah Kesting's approach is better I think & almost the same as the traditional ones
I also agree that older doesn't always mean better
However, and with respect, I think you're being a little closed minded to the possibility of there being valuable techniques to be found outside of your bubble

 

[Hanzou]

Yeah Kesting's approach is better I think & almost the same as the traditional ones
I also agree that older doesn't always mean better
However, and with respect, I think you're being a little closed minded to the possibility of there being valuable techniques to be found outside of your bubble

I have no issue with the possibility of valuable techniques being found outside of my bubble, I simply feel that the traditional methodology doesn't have a good track record. Overall, Martial Arts are better off now than they've ever been, and unfortunately a lot of stories about past martial prowess were simply made up.

 

[dunc]

I have no issue with the possibility of valuable techniques being found outside of my bubble, I simply feel that the traditional methodology doesn't have a good track record. Overall, Martial Arts are better off now than they've ever been, and unfortunately a lot of stories about past martial prowess were simply made up.

I agree with this
And have found that there are a lot of very useful techniques and principles from old JJJ that work really well alongside the more contemporary stuff