Will Brazilian Jiujitsu eventually replace Japanese Jujitsu?

[Hanzou]

Tenjin Shinyo ryu includes randori in their training, AFAIK. They also practice Kodokan Judo alongside their Jujutsu. The late shihan of the school Kubota sensei was also 8th dan Judo, and regularly taught seminars at the Kodokan.

Yeah, but when you say “randori” what type of randori is it? Is it more like Judo randori or Aikido randori? If it’s like the latter, it doesn’t mean much.

 

[isshinryuronin]

In the mid 1960's there was a judo school near me. That was the popular TMA at that time and in previous years. I was going to join, but before I got around to it, it closed up, so I joined a karate school a couple of blocks away. Soon afterwards, that ex-judo school became Joe Lewis' karate school. Karate grew while judo shrank. Then Bruce Lee and "Kung Fu" TV show hit and kung fu began its growth. All this while TKD invaded the USA.

The community college had a jujitsu class ran by a tough, little, hard-a** former All Japan JuJitsu champion, Sensei Seki. He was very old school. My first couple of months consisted of throwing myself into the air and slamming into the mat at various angles. This activity was not destined to take over. My commitment to karate was thus firmly reinforced. But I diverge from my soon to be made point.

Full contact karate/kick boxing made its mark in the late 70's. Then MMA came on the scene and Gracie's BJJ appeared and became the golden art. Boxing's popularity ebbed and flowed, depending on if any superstars caught our attention. Now, the MA world is a goulash or buffet of many arts and combinations.

JJJ, a 400 ? year old TMA, always had a small following here. BJJ, a recent art, I think owes its popularity due to its incorporation in MMA. Who knows what will be the next "hot" MA?

 

[BrendanF]

Yeah, but when you say “randori” what type of randori is it? Is it more like Judo randori or Aikido randori? If it’s like the latter, it doesn’t mean much.

Like Judo randori is what I mean.

You do realise where bjj came from right? And where Judo came from?

Kinda odd that you would be championing the effectiveness of an art that got it's technical base from another art you dismiss as 'performance art' and 'dress up'.

It's clear that you don't actually know the first thing about the classical arts - why do you think you are in a position to describe what they are or aren't? And do you really think that your characterisations have not been incredibly insulting? What to you think of people who jokingly dismiss bjj with homophobic quips? Clever and accurate, or juvenile and ignorant?

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Tenjin Shinyo ryu includes randori in their training, AFAIK. They also practice Kodokan Judo alongside their Jujutsu. The late shihan of the school Kubota sensei was also 8th dan Judo, and regularly taught seminars at the Kodokan.

Ah, that would help explain some of the quality of their movement. From what I’ve observed practitioners at schools which never do randori tend to start letting little flaws skip into their grappling technique because they don’t develop a realistic awareness of how an opponent’s body will react. If the Tenjin Shinyo Ryu guys never did randori then I was prepared to be impressed at how well they had maintained the proper body dynamics.

 

[Buka]

This is an interesting .

 

[Hanzou]

Like Judo randori is what I mean.

Do you have any evidence of this beyond one of the grandmasters having a high rank in Judo? Judo randori works because there's no strikes or weapon use. I highly doubt that a Jujutsu that utilizes those things would utilize a randori similar to Judo.

You do realise where bjj came from right? And where Judo came from?

Kinda odd that you would be championing the effectiveness of an art that got it's technical base from another art you dismiss as 'performance art' and 'dress up'.

You do realize that Tenshin Shinyo Ryu isn't the only base of Judo right? Kano also studied Kito Ryu, various other Jujutsu, and western wrestling. Further, he HEAVILY modified the techniques he picked up from those Jujutsu schools when he created his system. But yeah, thanks for the reminder.

It's clear that you don't actually know the first thing about the classical arts - why do you think you are in a position to describe what they are or aren't? And do you really think that your characterisations have not been incredibly insulting? What to you think of people who jokingly dismiss bjj with homophobic quips? Clever and accurate, or juvenile and ignorant?

Why? Because I said those classical Jujutsu pretty much amounts to dress up and pretend? Why do you think Kano created Judo in the first place? It was to modernize Jujutsu which was already becoming obsolete by the late 19th century, and is even more obsolete now. I get it, people like Japanese culture, and the samurai and the weaponry, etc. However, let's not act like it's anything then what it actually is.

Doing a classical Japanese jujutsu is no different than people dressing up as knights or pikemen and playing around with medieval European weapons and tactics and participating in renaissance fairs, or doing HEMA and jousting. That is simply the reality. You're not beating a skilled fighter hand to hand with that stuff, and your katana or naginata isn't going to do much good against a hand gun or even a taser. If you wanted to learn how to fight, you'd be taking up a competitive with some actual fighting in it. If you wanted to learn how to use weapons, you'd buy a gun and go to a range, or you'd pick up some knives and learn some Filipino knife arts. So yeah, you're doing it to play pretend, unless you're Japanese and you're doing it to preserve your culture/heritage.

If you think the truth is an insult, that's your problem.

 

[punisher73]

MMA as a spectator sport seems to have more mind-share/market penetration than Collegiate Wrestling but less than Boxing. It's televised on sports channels, of course. I have friends who never trained a day of martial arts who are, nonetheless, MMA "fans." But they're pretty rare.

I agree with you that the average person has no clue what BJJ is.

Based on reports/research that I have come across through the years, MMA was (at the time when UFC was at its peak) the fastest growing SPECTATOR sport. Most of its fans are the same crowd as WWE. This is different from NHB in its early days when most people who watched UFC and other competitions were martial artists (including combat sports as well).

About 5 years ago, a Brazilian exchange student was at our house visiting our daughter and other friends. I asked him about BJJ and he had no clue what I was even talking about. When I described the martial art, he responded, "Oh like Tae Kwon Do". Another Brazilian informed me that only the punks/gang members took that art.

I agree that the average person has no real clue what most martial arts are, and clump them together based on their knowledge of one. For example, all arts are "karate" or "judo" no matter what they really are.

The other thing that the article and OP seem to miss is that people study arts for different reasons and not all of them have to do with just learning to fight. Some people love the methodology and connection to a long tradition and will always gravitate to JJJ.

 

[BrendanF]

Do you have any evidence of this beyond one of the grandmasters having a high rank in Judo? Judo randori works because there's no strikes or weapon use. I highly doubt that a Jujutsu that utilizes those things would utilize a randori similar to Judo.

Evidence of what? I'm telling you they do randori. What you choose to imagine that means is your business. Who said anything about strikes or weapon use?

Doing a classical Japanese jujutsu is no different than people dressing up as knights or pikemen and playing around with medieval European weapons and tactics and participating in renaissance fairs, or doing HEMA and jousting. That is simply the reality.

No, that's your ignorant assessment, as someone with no knowledge of what classical Japanese jujutsu really is. By way of correction, you have had several active koryu jujutsu practitioners repeatedly tell you that you are both wrong and insulting with that description. But perhaps you're just too lacking in reading comprehension to understand that, so I'll spell out the distinction for you.

People who "dress up as knights or pikemen and playing around with medieval European weapons and participating in renaissance fairs" are by definition "playing around". These people are not practicing martial arts, and don't claim to be. They have no connection to the warfare or weapons they are "playing with" and in the example you describe, typically have little actual knowledge of medieval warfare outside of what they have read in books or manuscripts. HEMA is by definition reconstructed.

The koryu are martial arts with a direct connection to the time when they were actually used in war. They claim to be martial arts, teaching martial skills that have been obsolete for centuries. Trying to diminish or dismiss them by pointing out that they are obsolete is just weird.

The fact that you seem to have a problem with other cultures dressing differently is similarly weird and has nothing to do with anything. Using insulting characterisations as you have reflects poorly on you, not the arts or practitioners you immaturely attack. As I said before.

You're not beating a skilled fighter hand to hand with that stuff, and your katana or naginata isn't going to do much good against a hand gun or even a taser. If you wanted to learn how to fight, you'd be taking up a competitive with some actual fighting in it. If you wanted to learn how to use weapons, you'd buy a gun and go to a range, or you'd pick up some knives and learn some Filipino knife arts. So yeah, you're doing it to play pretend, unless you're Japanese and you're doing it to preserve your culture/heritage.

If you think the truth is an insult, that's your problem.

If you think your opinions as stated above are 'truths' then I can see I'm wasting my time talking to you. Your inability to distinguish your own personal biases from objective reality is disheartening. But then "I should of known better" hey?

 

[Hanzou]

Evidence of what? I'm telling you they do randori. What you choose to imagine that means is your business. Who said anything about strikes or weapon use?

And I'm telling you that not all randori resembles Judo randori. Especially when you have a MA that is largely based on Kata like Tenshin Shinyo is. Further, my research on this Jujutsu doesn't mention randori at all, so some counter-evidence would be appreciated. If you have no evidence to back up what you said earlier, just say so.

No, that's your ignorant assessment, as someone with no knowledge of what classical Japanese jujutsu really is. By way of correction, you have had several active koryu jujutsu practitioners repeatedly tell you that you are both wrong and insulting with that description. But perhaps you're just too lacking in reading comprehension to understand that, so I'll spell out the distinction for you.

People who "dress up as knights or pikemen and playing around with medieval European weapons and participating in renaissance fairs" are by definition "playing around". These people are not practicing martial arts, and don't claim to be. They have no connection to the warfare or weapons they are "playing with" and in the example you describe, typically have little actual knowledge of medieval warfare outside of what they have read in books or manuscripts. HEMA is by definition reconstructed.

The koryu are martial arts with a direct connection to the time when they were actually used in war. They claim to be martial arts, teaching martial skills that have been obsolete for centuries. Trying to diminish or dismiss them by pointing out that they are obsolete is just weird.

Of course active Koryu practitioners would say I'm wrong, yet not provide anything to show that I'm wrong. They simply don't like how I characterized what they're doing. Sure, I'll grant that people who participate in classical Japanese Jujutsu probably have more direct connection to the actual obsolete martial arts of Japan than their European counterparts (mainly because European knights became obsolete centuries before the Samurai did), but does that make what they're doing any more applicable to the modern era? In the end, you're still playing dress up, practicing a martial art relic, and indulging in a culture that you don't belong to. Like I said, if you're Japanese, wishing to sustain your cultural heritage is understandable, and if your family were samurai, I understand it even more so. People want to preserve their cultural traditions for their future generations.

However, if you're some white dude from Europe or Australia attempting to preserve a culture you don't belong to.... well I suppose we all have our interests.

The fact that you seem to have a problem with other cultures dress differently is similarly weird and has nothing to do with anything. Using insulting characterisations as you have reflects poorly on you, not the arts or practitioners you immaturely attack. As I said before.

I have no idea how you got that impression from what I said.

If you think your opinions as stated above are 'truths' then I can see I'm wasting my time talking to you. Your inability to distinguish your own personal biases from objective reality is disheartening. But then "I should of known better" hey?

No personal biases here my friend, only observation. Since the fighting application of these classical JJ arts are pretty close to nil the only purpose for them is dressing up, learning some Japanese culture, and getting some sort of personal gratification for learning difficult pre-meiji choreography. Again, there's nothing wrong with that. The problem is that you don't want to be compared to a renaissance fair participant, despite the fact that you're not very different from one.

But hey, at least you look cooler.

 

[drop bear]

Based on reports/research that I have come across through the years, MMA was (at the time when UFC was at its peak) the fastest growing SPECTATOR sport. Most of its fans are the same crowd as WWE. This is different from NHB in its early days when most people who watched UFC and other competitions were martial artists (including combat sports as well).

About 5 years ago, a Brazilian exchange student was at our house visiting our daughter and other friends. I asked him about BJJ and he had no clue what I was even talking about. When I described the martial art, he responded, "Oh like Tae Kwon Do". Another Brazilian informed me that only the punks/gang members took that art.

I agree that the average person has no real clue what most martial arts are, and clump them together based on their knowledge of one. For example, all arts are "karate" or "judo" no matter what they really are.

The other thing that the article and OP seem to miss is that people study arts for different reasons and not all of them have to do with just learning to fight. Some people love the methodology and connection to a long tradition and will always gravitate to JJJ.

The gracies followed a very similar path to mestre Bimba of capoeira. In that they taught their art to rich people.

Which of course wound up being a baller move.

 

[drop bear]

The koryu are martial arts with a direct connection to the time when they were actually used in war. They claim to be martial arts, teaching martial skills that have been obsolete for centuries. Trying to diminish or dismiss them by pointing out that they are obsolete is just weird.

What do you mean by a direct connection to arts used in war? For example one of our head honchos trains the ADF.

Now he trains a guy who trains a guy who trains me. And I would not say that was a direct connection.

 

[BrendanF]

And I'm telling you that not all randori resembles Judo randori.

What does that have to do with anything?

Of course active Koryu practitioners would say I'm wrong, yet not provide anything to show that I'm wrong. They simply don't like how I characterized what they're doing. Sure, I'll grant that people who participate in classical Japanese Jujutsu probably have more direct connection to the actual obsolete martial arts of Japan than their European counterparts (mainly because European knights became obsolete centuries before the Samurai did), but does that make what they're doing any more applicable to the modern era? In the end, you're still playing dress up, practicing a martial art relic, and indulging in a culture that you don't belong to. Like I said, if you're Japanese, wishing to sustain your cultural heritage is understandable, and if your family were samurai, I understand it even more so. People want to preserve their cultural traditions for their future generations.

However, if you're some white dude from Europe or Australia attempting to preserve a culture you don't belong to.... well I suppose we all have our interests.

Are you preserving Brazilian culture in doing bjj? Are you playing dress up when you do gi bjj?

I just don't understand again, where you get the idea that your opinion matters, when you have admitted yourself that you don't know what you're talking about.

I have no idea how you got that impression from what I said.

I got that impression because you have steadfastly insisted that because koryu practitioners wear hakama when training, that they are 'playing dress up'. You somehow miss the irony that in bjj you wear keikogi also.. so.. YOU are also just playing dress up right?

Perhaps if you would like to clarify what exactly it is you mean, and then there would be no misunderstanding right? Beyond wearing different training clothes, what do you mean by 'playing dress up'?

No personal biases here my friend, only observation. Since the fighting application of these classical JJ arts are pretty close to nil the only purpose for them is dressing up, learning some Japanese culture, and getting some sort of personal gratification for learning difficult pre-meiji choreography. Again, there's nothing wrong with that. The problem is that you don't want to be compared to a renaissance fair participant, despite the fact that you're not very different from one.

But hey, at least you look cooler.

No personal biases? As I said, this is clearly just a waste of time. Critical thinking is not something taught to people these days.

 

[BrendanF]

No personal biases here my friend, only observation. Since the fighting application of these classical JJ arts are pretty close to nil the only purpose for them is dressing up, learning some Japanese culture, and getting some sort of personal gratification for learning difficult pre-meiji choreography.

One last question. What experience fighting with weapons do you have to make such an assessment?

 

[drop bear]

One last question. What experience fighting with weapons do you have to make such an assessment?

Wait a second. What experience fighting with weapons does anyone have?

 

[BrendanF]

Wait a second. What experience fighting with weapons does anyone have?

Exactly. That's kinda the point of learning from schools which were created and continued by people who did.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Wait a second. What experience fighting with weapons does anyone have?

I've had a knife pulled on me three times. I'm sure I'm not the only one. It may not be super common, but it's also certainly not unheard of.

 

[drop bear]

I've had a knife pulled on me three times. I'm sure I'm not the only one. It may not be super common, but it's also certainly not unheard of.

Same. But I wouldn't call myself a weapons man.

 

[drop bear]

Exactly. That's kinda the point of learning from schools which were created and continued by people who did.

Not really a fan of that concept.

 

[Hanzou]

What does that have to do with anything?

You said that this classical JJ style had randori in it that resembles Judo. I'm still waiting for you to provide evidence of this, because everything I've read about this system shows that it's almost entirely based on various forms of kata.

Are you preserving Brazilian culture in doing bjj? Are you playing dress up when you do gi bjj?

I do Brazilian Jiujitsu for self defense. I wear a gi to both denote rank, and to learn how to utilize certain grips when grappling. In all honesty though, I prefer no-gi Bjj do to the wear and tear gi grips can cause to the hands.

I just don't understand again, where you get the idea that your opinion matters, when you have admitted yourself that you don't know what you're talking about.

Saying that you're playing dress up isn't an opinion. You're wearing a traditional outfit, you're learning Japanese, you're doing various ceremonies and rituals, you're doing choreographed movements based on combat scenarios from feudal Japan, you're utilizing obsolete and outdated weapons and fighting tactics, etc. Where's the lie? What makes you any different than a historical reenactor?

I got that impression because you have steadfastly insisted that because koryu practitioners wear hakama when training, that they are 'playing dress up'. You somehow miss the irony that in bjj you wear keikogi also.. so.. YOU are also just playing dress up right?

Again, our uniform serves a purpose when we're fighting, and our martial art is designed for modern self defense. In addition some Bjj schools don't use the gi at all. So no, it's not even close to the same thing.

Perhaps if you would like to clarify what exactly it is you mean, and then there would be no misunderstanding right? Beyond wearing different training clothes, what do you mean by 'playing dress up'?

See above.

One last question. What experience fighting with weapons do you have to make such an assessment?

I've been around guns my entire life, and I learned to shoot when I was very young by my grandfather (though I currently don't own a firearm). I also own a katana (bought it from a nice old Asian lady at a flea market some years back). Finally I was attacked by an assailant wielding a hammer.

However, why would I need to be well versed in weaponry to say that a medieval sword or a polearm are obsolete weapons? That's sort of common sense.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Same. But I wouldn't call myself a weapons man.

OK, but your post wasn't very clear then. How many times do you need to be attacked with a knife before it counts as "having experience"?