Will Brazilian Jiujitsu eventually replace Japanese Jujitsu?

[Gerry Seymour]

I think the portion in parenthesis really needs to be bolded. Some of the stuff passed down in the old days was complete bunk and never properly vetted or tested. Hence why I think our reverence for certain "relic" techniques and belief in their efficacy is misplaced.

I suspect there's been some signal loss from when they were first taught. I've looked at some of the techniques I learned, and had to ask whether they were always this obscure and hard to get to, or have we (those learning the style) simply lost what the technique was supposed to be and/or what made it available (the entry or situation that makes it a reasonable choice).

I suspect some of both that and the never properly vetted. I also suspect there are some techniques that were meant for training a principle, rather than for application. They make great sense as drills, but not so much as functional fighting techniques.

 

[drop bear]

That would be a per-school decision. JJJ isn't even a single style, but a family of styles.

Ok. Name one JJJ school that holds the equivalent of an open mat.

You can have the entire family of schools if you want.

 

[drop bear]

I think what he was saying is it all (if it ever worked) still works. It's a matter of figuring out which work well enough and in enough situations to focus on those. And that does change over time.

I don't think he is saying that. I think he is creating a platform for dogma.

So. JJJ has a proven? History of their martial arts working in the battlefield for hundreds of years. We have preserved their system of training and replicate it and because the human body has not changed. Therefore we have a proven system of martial arts.

Very much like the kata fallacy.

It removes any requirement to show the system works in any context.

 

[drop bear]

I love that idea. I haven't been able to do open-mat times at any of the places I've taught. I want to, though I doubt I'd get many takers with a small program. Just not as interesting for the visitor.

BJJ created a different culture than has been seen in a lot of martial arts. Where sparring sessions are open to outsiders.

It is a high risk strategy if you are intent on protecting an image. Which many martial arts styles are.

Which is also why we won't see randori filmed in some schools.

 

[drop bear]

Just like the dude's 16" waist, and his stick-figure bird ankles, and his too-short forearm are obviously intended to be anatomically correct? The way they drew artwork for this is different from what you think you know. It's not supposed to be photo-realistic. Based on the translations I've read, this is either a choke, a neck-crank, or both.

So martial arts hasn't evolved but being able to draw the human body has?

 

[lklawson]

Or simply a headlock, because you aren't choking anything with your hand and elbow in that position. I take it that this is an instructional manual?

Yes. Written in a 500 year old German dialect. There are, I think, 4 total manuals by this instructor. He's a major source for those studying this branch of "knightly" martial arts.

If the goal was to teach to choke someone, there's going to be a lot of disappointed people.

I'll also add that based on those illustrations you posted, we've definitely gotten way better at grappling over the last few hundred years. Some of that stuff in those illustrations would be classified as "crappling" because it would be incredibly easy to roll out of or counter.

Most of these old fight manuals cannot be read the same way that you read a modern manual. They illustrated things differently at different time and for different reasons. Many of these are the equivalent of short-hand notes written and illustrated by the student himself (particularly the Italian Longsword stuff) and are not intended to show every last step. Many other manuals are actually the equivalent of advertisements by fighting experts looking to land a cushy job teaching a Noble's sons. These are often written so that it leaves out important steps, or even the "finish" ; it'd be silly to give away the goods when you're trying to make book of of them.

As bizarre as it may sound to you, it takes a lot of work to read and understand these. I actually sat through a seminar by a Professor on how to read and understand Medieval "instructional" manuscripts. If you don't do it right, your recipe for bread will be screwed up because you only thought you knew how to read a Medieval manual when you didn't.

While I found that seminar highly instructive, I found the seminar on the historic context of Dueling to be much more engaging.

 

[lklawson]

So martial arts hasn't evolved but being able to draw the human body has?

No. You're ability to understand how to read Medieval manuscripts, or their contexts, is untrained.

I'll say it again, but I doubt it'll sink in. Photo-realism wasn't important for most Medieval instructional manuscripts. They had their own ideas of how to record what was important and they're not necessarily your ideas.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Not only that, but the world has changed. We're no longer sitting in seiza sipping tea with a tanto at our side nor are we walking around next to authority figures carrying katanas. Thus there's very little application for training that revolves around those scenarios outside of cultural preservation/appropriation, or simply living out a personal samurai fantasy.

I've been getting into archery this last few months, so I'm going to use an analogy from that domain.

If you want a bow to hunt deer and bring home meat for your family, then from a strictly functional standpoint a modern compound bow is the way to go. These bows can produce reliable precision accuracy and killing power with less training time than any other bow in the history of archery. This would explain why (in the U.S. at least) these bows are generally the most popular especially among hunters.

On the other hand, there are still people out there who can hand knap flint arrowheads and build simple bows and arrows with nothing more than hand tools and materials they find in the forest. Personally, I think that's really cool. I think the world is a little richer because that kind of cultural knowledge has been preserved. Are these bows and arrows the most effective tool currently available for hunting food? Nah, but that's not really the point. Heck, for most of us the easiest way to get meat is to go to the supermarket.

 

[Hanzou]

Yes. Written in a 500 year old German dialect. There are, I think, 4 total manuals by this instructor. He's a major source for those studying this branch of "knightly" martial arts.

Okay, but that doesn’t change the fact that what was depicted in that image isn’t a choke. In fact, that’s almost exactly how someone shouldn’t do the guillotine choke.

Most of these old fight manuals cannot be read the same way that you read a modern manual. They illustrated things differently at different time and for different reasons. Many of these are the equivalent of short-hand notes written and illustrated by the student himself (particularly the Italian Longsword stuff) and are not intended to show every last step. Many other manuals are actually the equivalent of advertisements by fighting experts looking to land a cushy job teaching a Noble's sons. These are often written so that it leaves out important steps, or even the "finish" ; it'd be silly to give away the goods when you're trying to make book of of them.

That’s a very long winded excuse. Again, if that’s being advertised as a choke, then it’s false advertisement. You can try it yourself; wrap your arm around the side of your partner’s neck with your hand palm up right under your partner’s head, and try to choke them. You can even clamp your hands together. Let me know how it works out for you.

As bizarre as it may sound to you, it takes a lot of work to read and understand these. I actually sat through a seminar by a Professor on how to read and understand Medieval "instructional" manuscripts. If you don't do it right, your recipe for bread will be screwed up because you only thought you knew how to read a Medieval manual when you didn't.

Cool. That still isn’t a Guillotine though.

 

[lklawson]

Okay, but that doesn’t change the fact that what was depicted in that image isn’t a choke. In fact, that’s almost exactly how someone shouldn’t do the guillotine choke.

By your uninformed say so.

That’s a very long winded excuse. Again, if that’s being advertised as a choke, then it’s false advertisement.

Why don't you translate the 500 year old dialect and tell me what your translation is.

Cool. That still isn’t a Guillotine though.

Dueling isn't a guillotine choke? Tell me more.

 

[Hanzou]

By your uninformed say so.

Like I said, you can attempt it yourself. It’s not going to choke out your partner.

Why don't you translate the 500 year old dialect and tell me what your translation is.

How does a translation change the fact that that image isn’t depicting a valid choking technique?

Dueling isn't a guillotine choke? Tell me more.

I wasn’t talking about dueling, I was talking about that pic you claimed was a Guillotine choke. As for the rest of those holds, yeah they’re rather suspect as well.

 

[Hanzou]

I've been getting into archery this last few months, so I'm going to use an analogy from that domain.

If you want a bow to hunt deer and bring home meat for your family, then from a strictly functional standpoint a modern compound bow is the way to go. These bows can produce reliable precision accuracy and killing power with less training time than any other bow in the history of archery. This would explain why (in the U.S. at least) these bows are generally the most popular especially among hunters.

On the other hand, there are still people out there who can hand knap flint arrowheads and build simple bows and arrows with nothing more than hand tools and materials they find in the forest. Personally, I think that's really cool. I think the world is a little richer because that kind of cultural knowledge has been preserved. Are these bows and arrows the most effective tool currently available for hunting food? Nah, but that's not really the point. Heck, for most of us the easiest way to get meat is to go to the supermarket.

Hey, I wasn’t saying learning old stuff has no value, it certainly does. I was merely pointing out that you cross a line when you start to believe that wielding a medieval spear from Asia, or practicing a kata where you ambush a seated person drinking tea is as practical as carrying a knife or learning the guard, or learning boxing.

 

[drop bear]

No. You're ability to understand how to read Medieval manuscripts, or their contexts, is untrained.

I'll say it again, but I doubt it'll sink in. Photo-realism wasn't important for most Medieval instructional manuscripts. They had their own ideas of how to record what was important and they're not necessarily your ideas.

Makes sense there is a text that only the initiated can decipher.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Ok. Name one JJJ school that holds the equivalent of an open mat.

You can have the entire family of schools if you want.

I don’t know the policies of more than a few. I can recall a couple where I could have gone and played. Not sure how intense their sparring would be, nor if that same open invite would have applied if my core wasn’t closely related. That last part is part of the overall issue, I think. I expect an open mat time at a BJJ school, they’d be happy to let me get on the mats and get pretzeled, even though I’m not a BJJ guy.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

BJJ created a different culture than has been seen in a lot of martial arts. Where sparring sessions are open to outsiders.

It is a high risk strategy if you are intent on protecting an image. Which many martial arts styles are.

Which is also why we won't see randori filmed in some schools.

I agree with all but the last sentence. I don’t think the omission is nearly as purposeful as you suspect.

 

[Hanzou]

I expect an open mat time at a BJJ school, they’d be happy to let me get on the mats and get pretzeled, even though I’m not a BJJ guy.

Yes they would. Especially if you tell them you're from Aikido.

 

[drop bear]

I agree with all but the last sentence. I don’t think the omission is nearly as purposeful as you suspect.

I think it is so ingrained in the culture that it is not seen as purposeful.

 

[drop bear]

I don’t know the policies of more than a few. I can recall a couple where I could have gone and played. Not sure how intense their sparring would be, nor if that same open invite would have applied if my core wasn’t closely related. That last part is part of the overall issue, I think. I expect an open mat time at a BJJ school, they’d be happy to let me get on the mats and get pretzeled, even though I’m not a BJJ guy.

Or if you are from a competing BJJ school.

Rather than the days of the dojo storm.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Not until they know me by name.

So "that guy with the tie die man thong" doesn't count?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I think it is so ingrained in the culture that it is not seen as purposeful.

That's a possibility. I think it's mostly a matter of what they think is important (and as I said before, what they think looks interesting). Even some of the TMA places I've been to that spar don't see it as fundamental, so they focus vidoes on the stuff that they think is.